29. Introduction to Adoption with co-owner of Utah Adoption Specialists Kim Perry, LCSW

Kim Perry is an LCSW and co-owner of Utah Adoption Specialists. If you are already in the throes of adoption, this episode may be less informative for you, but if you are considering looking into adoption this is a great place to start. Additionally, if you have a loved one who is going through the adoption process it may be supportive to learn a little bit about your loved ones’ potential experience.

We talk about the difference between private adoption and agency adoption, the cost of private adoption, and the logistical and emotional process people go through in the adoption process. Additionally, Kim tells us about why Utah Adoption Specialists require their adoptive families to go through education prior to adoption and some of what makes adoption ethical or unethical. Kim generously shares some personal experiences of why open adoptions can be empowering for adoptive children.

I learned SO MUCH from this episode, and I know you will too. Please check out their website to learn more or if you know an expectant parent who may be looking into adoption.

Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club

Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club

Transcript

Joni: 0:00

Hello. Welcome back to the sad moms club. I'm your host, Joanie Liberte. I'm a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner who wants to help women connect better to the resources we have within our state. I'm really excited for the guests we have today because I made it a goal to include more resources and stories of infertility and alternative ways people build their families. And today we're talking about adoption. Kim Perry is a licensed clinical social worker and co-owner of Utah adoption specialists. Now, if you're already in the throws of adoption, that episode may be less informative for you. But if you're considering looking into adoption, this can be a great place to start. Additionally, if you have a loved one, who's going through the adoption process right now, it might be really supportive to learn a little bit about what that process may look like. Today, we talk about the difference between private adoption and agency adoption. The cost of private adoption and the logistical, as well as the emotional process people may go through when they're looking to adopt. Additionally Kim tells us. About why they require their adoptive families to go through education and prior to adoption and some of what makes adoption ethical or unethical. Kim was really open during the interview. And she was kind enough to share some personal experiences of why open adoptions can be really empowering for adoptive children. I know very little about adoption before we started this episode outside of what I learned from a friend who worked with Utah adoption specialists. So. I learned a lot and I know you will, too. If, you are willing to listen. Let's get started. Could we start by you just telling me where are you from? What got you into social work? And then your path to working in adoption.

Kim: 2:03

Sure. So I'm originally from Idaho, grew up in Idaho, but I've lived in Utah my whole adult life, came down to go to school at BYU and thought I'll go to school and then leave after the four years and I've never left. So I'm still in Utah. I live in Davis County. And I think I knew that I was going to be a social worker from the time I was young. I remember I was back in the day, I was really good about writing in a journal and I had written in a journal several times that I wanted to be a social worker while I was in high school. And to be honest, I can't remember exactly what led me to want to be a social worker. I just knew that was what I was destined to become. And adoption specifically, I was interested in because I had an aunt, my mom's youngest sister, was adopted, and I grew up knowing that she was adopted into our family, that was a part of her story, but I didn't really dive into what that meant, but it just struck a chord with me early on. My grandparents had eight biological children, and then had this just surprise adoption that landed on their laps, so my aunt was their ninth child. And the only one that was adopted and I just always knew that it was unique and it was an interesting story. And I think my inspiration to work in adoption came from knowing her growing up and knowing that was a portion of me. of who she was.

Joni: 3:21

That's cool. Going back to the social worker thing. How did you know what a social worker was as a child? I hadn't ever heard of it until I was older.

Kim: 3:29

Honestly, I can't remember. I don't know. I'm too old to remember what I was thinking as a, I honestly don't know. Maybe it's because the adoption thing was first in my mind. And then I knew that like in order to work in adoptions, you had to become a social worker. Somehow I connected that dot somehow. That's what I would suspect.

Joni: 3:47

Yeah, when you ask kids, what they want to do, they only say things they're aware of. So I'm like, somehow you're aware that this was a job or a career. But I certainly, I had no idea what it was. That's cool. So you went to school, got your. LCSW or MSW. And then did you immediately start working in adoption?

Kim: 4:07

Actually prior to getting my MSW. So I got my bachelor's degree. At BYU during that four years that I was there and started working in the adoption field immediately after that, I worked at LDS Family Services back in the day when they were doing adoptions. I was one of the last people hired there. They went on a big hiring freeze after I was hired and then eventually stopped doing adoptions as you know, I'm sure. And so in that interim period, I worked at LDS Family Services from 2008 to 2013. And in 2013, I just felt like it was time to go back to school and get my master's degree. So I went to the University of Utah and did their advanced standing program and got my master's in that year, and that was perfect timing because that's when LDS Family Services stopped doing adoptions. And so myself and a couple of my coworkers from that prior agency, then. Decided to start our company that we have now, Utah Adoption Specialists. So it really served me well to have the master's degree ready to go right as I was starting this business.

Joni: 5:12

Totally. So what year did you start it?

Kim: 5:14

We started at the end of 2013. That's when we like got all the business stuff going and then we started taking our first clients in 2014.

Joni: 5:21

Wow, so you guys have been going for almost 10 years. That's really cool.

Kim: 5:25

It's wild, I don't feel old enough to have this been going for 10 years,

Joni: 5:28

Oh, that's amazing. Okay, so I imagine people who are like in the adoption world I think a lot of the information we're going to talk about today. I kind of was thinking let's say someone's been struggling with infertility for a long time and then they decide to pursue adoption. I was thinking we could do it from that angle, like some education around how to get into it, things that are required, costs, stuff like that. Does that sound okay?

Kim: 5:56

Sure. Yep.

Joni: 5:58

I hear people say Oh, if you can't have a kid, you can just adopt. Like I've heard that so many times and I just think, I don't think it's that simple. I don't think it's as easy as some people think it is. Let's say a couple calls you or a person calls you saying they want to adopt what does that process start looking like?

Kim: 6:13

That's a great question. So I think we can tackle this from both like a physical aspect and like what are the logistical steps you have to take. And also there's an emotional side, there's an emotional component that you have to be ready for as well. But the actual logistical steps, the first step to any type of adoption is a home study. You have to have a home study, which is a written document that says that you are eligible for adoption. And it has to be based on what your state statutes say. So there's a law in place that says like you have to cover X, Y, and Z in a home study. And so I think a lot of people think automatically a home study, they're just going to come look at my house, right? They're going to make sure that my house looks good for a child, but it is not that really at all. That is a portion of it, but it ends up being a written document that is usually about 15 pages long and it covers everything from your background to your finances, to your marriage. If you're married, you can adopt as a single person to your emotional health. There's lots of different sections that you have to gather paperwork for, reference letters, employment verifications, financial statements, background checks, all of that information is then compiled into the written document called the home study. That home study becomes yours that you can use for any type of adoption. It is important to note that you have to have a different kind of home study depending on what kind of adoption you want to pursue. So if you want to adopt through the foster care system. You have to have a home study through the state. You cannot come to me and get a home study and use it for a foster care placement. And vice versa. If you want to do a private adoption or adopt through an agency an infant, an infant private adoption, you have to have a home study through me or a group like me, not the state. They don't cross over. Okay. So that's important to know. And then international adoption is a whole separate beast as well. You do have to have a separate home study specific to international adoption. Anyway, that gets a little bit complex, but. We can guide you if you're like I have no idea what I want to do I don't know where I want to go Just all and we'll do a phone call with you and help you figure out what steps But initially yes a home study and then depending on what kind of adoption you want to pursue again In the world I work in there's an agency adoption or there's a private option The difference between those is that an agency? does a lot of the legwork for you. They match you with expectant parents. So you like make a profile and they have the ability to advertise and bring in expectant parents who are looking to place their babies for adoption and they'll end up matching you. In a private adoption you do that work yourself. So you use your networks, you put it on social media, you use profile hosting websites, you tell everyone you know that you're hoping to adopt, and you make a connection on your own. And that is what the majority of our couples do, is the private adoption route. Because the cost difference is significant. So in an agency, typically you're looking at 50, 000 to 60, 000 per adoption. And then in a private adoption, you pay for exactly the services you get, right? So if you need a home study, you pay for the home study. We provide casework services with that. If your expectant parent needs counseling, and we highly encourage that you pay for counseling for them, you just pay for the number of sessions that they use, right? You pay for an attorney to do the legal aspects of the adoption. So between the social worker and the attorney, you can do all the same things as an agency. But in Utah, you can easily do a private adoption for 10, 000 or less, just depending on the circumstances of your particular adoption. So that's why a lot of people choose. to use a private adoption. I don't have anything against agencies. I think they have their place. It's just not attainable for a lot of people. Oh, go ahead.

Joni: 9:50

Sorry. Yeah, I just had a question. You said with the counseling, do you mean the people who are adopting might look into counseling? Okay. I thought you were saying maybe like counseling for the biological parents. I'm not sure what the right terminology is, but Okay, so you'd pay for both.

Kim: 10:06

you pay for both. In Utah, the law states that you have to pay for a certain number of sessions of counseling for an expectant parent who is placing a baby with you. Adoptive parents are required to pay those fees for them. And obviously, I think that on the flip side, the emotional side that we didn't really broach yet I think adoptive parents should absolutely do some counseling and some grief work around their own infertility. Almost always, something has led them to this path, right? They didn't wake up and say, you know what, we that of the time, Infertility has led them to this path and there's a whole grieving process that needs to occur. Surrounding the idea that you're not going to have biological children. Adoption is wonderful, and it's beautiful, and adopted children are fantastic, and they, can fill a hole in your heart. But it does not replace the idea that you, once dreamed of having, biological children. So you have to do some grief work around that to be in the best place possible to be a good adoptive parent to the children that come into your home.

Joni: 11:14

Oh, that's a really good point. Okay, I was gonna ask you something about that so so someone calls you are they they're more looking for a private adoption It sounds like. Typically they might go somewhere else for an agency adoption I mean you guys could do both but are you guys known more for private adoption?

Kim: 11:31

Yes, absolutely. Most of our clients come to us because they know we can help them with a private adoption. Once the home study is done, The product is theirs, so they can take it, we give it to them, they can take it to any agency or anywhere they want to. And so we do sometimes have people come to us and just say, I want to get a home study and then I'm going to take it to three or four agencies. And we're like, that's great. It opens the door and more often for them. So either path is fine.

Joni: 11:55

Gotcha. And then, how much does a homesteading cost? Do you mind me asking?

Kim: 11:58

that's fine. It's 850 for a private homesteading like the ones that we do.

Joni: 12:03

Okay, so they'll get the homesteading. They're using their networks to, potentially adopt someone. What happens once they have... Someone that potentially they could adopt. And then also I've heard from just like personal friends that many fall through or there's so many potentials, but then they don't happen. Can you talk about that process, what you're involved in and maybe the emotional aspect of having lots of maybes that don't actually pan out?

Kim: 12:30

So yes, once they're like matched with someone, if the process goes smoothly, they hire the attorney. We provide social services for both the adoptive couple and the birth parent. I wouldn't do both. If the adoptive couple was mine. One of my co workers would be providing the counseling for the expectant parent. That's ethical. That's the best way to go about it. And then whoever that person is that's providing the counseling is the one that will go into the hospital and do what's called the relinquishment, which is when the birth parent signs the termination of their parental rights paperwork. And that's done all under the order of a judge. So we have to go to court and get a court order that says that we can take that relinquishment. And then... That process is complete in Utah. It's legally binding. Once the birth parent has signed the paperwork, she can't come back and change her mind or anything like that. But now you did ask about what about those situations that fall through? And that does happen, but it is not as common as people think. I think the big key component to that is if the expectant parent has had good support and good counseling throughout their pregnancy and have really weighed their options. Because we're not in this to encourage people or to force them or to coerce them to place their baby for adoption. If they've had good counseling surrounding their options, we want them to parent if that's the right decision for them. We want them to place their baby for adoption if that's the right decision for them. We don't have any skin in the game, right? We want that person to make her own choice based on what's best for her. And if they've had good counseling and made the adoption plan themselves, Almost always that plan is going to go through. She's going to place the baby for adoption when she's committed to placing the baby for adoption. Very rarely, there are circumstances where a mom will change her mind in the hospital, and that is okay. Again, that's okay. Of course it's heartbreaking for the adoptive couple, devastating for them, and I'm not undermining that at all, but that wasn't ever their baby, right? They can't lay claim on that baby until she is legally signed. A termination of her parental rights. And if that mom chooses to parent, I try and rejoice in that and be happy for her that she felt that she could do it. Of course, we support the adoptive couple through the devastation of that. The other part of that is that there's usually a lot of contacts. You kind of alluded to this too like, they might get contacted fairly often throughout their journey. And a lot of those may not pan out into an actual placement. They probably will get contacted a lot. And this is a little known fact about adoption, but. There's a real underworld of scammers. There's this whole group of people that go out and scam adoptive couples. It's like catfishing, where they just want attention from them. They're not actually usually asking for money or anything like that. They just emotionally prey on these people who are in a really vulnerable position. And so almost always, adoptive couples will be contacted by several scammers in the process as well. And that can be really emotional and difficult. We just say, you know, like rely on your support system, stay in counseling, get a good counselor, get a good relationship with them and make sure that you're getting support that way. And then we always advocate for community within the adoption world too, make a community of people who are going through something similar because they can understand you in a way that your mom, your sister, your cousin, your friend next door can't, even though they want to be there for you. They don't fully understand if they've never faced the same path. You know what I mean?

Joni: 15:56

Yeah, definitely. That's great advice. Are you counseling the couple, if it's a couple, or is it individual counseling with both? Are you meeting often, like monthly? How does that look for your side of the counseling?

Kim: 16:10

That's a great question. So once a couple has a home study, if I'm their caseworker for their home study, I'm available to them anytime they need. So they can call me, we can meet if they want to meet, but I'm specific to adoption, right? I have knowledge of infertility because this is what's led them there, I always encourage our couples, if they're struggling particularly, to have their own therapist on the side. can be an extra support to them. Of course I can be a support to them, but I want them to have their own person that they're meeting with regularly and going in weekly or bi weekly or whatever they need to do. And the way my schedule works, I don't have time, none of us do because we're doing home visits and we're meeting with birth parents and we're doing all these other things to be doing regular counseling hours, like in an office setting. So we encourage them to have their own support on the side too.

Joni: 16:58

That makes sense. So you're not doing like a sit down session.

Kim: 17:01

Not usually, not after their home study is done. During the home study process, yes, we do several sit down sessions and talk and interviews and stuff like that. We could do sit down sessions if they wanted to post home study.

Joni: 17:14

Okay. are there classes you guys offer or that you encourage people to go to to kind of understand what they are okay adopting, what they're not okay adopting, so they can set their own boundaries before there's a match, a potential match.

Kim: 17:27

Yes. That's a great point. Education is really important to us too. We want our clients to be as educated as possible as they go into adoption because it is a different world. It's very different than bringing home a biological child. The day to day, yes, it looks the same. But you are bringing on a birth family. You are going to have different dynamics. You're going to have different feelings, again, related to your infertility that might come up. So we do training classes that we have twice a year, generally, that we have people come to and get all the education they can. It's 10 hours and we have classes ranging from a class about infertility to what open adoption is to how do you choose what those conditions are that you want to say you're open to in a child, there's classes on everything. We have a birth parent panel. Lots of different classes that are educational. And a lot of times people come out of those and say this is fantastic, this is everything I needed to know, I'm ready to go. And then other times people will say, This isn't the right path for me. I can see that this is going to be too much. I'm not cut out for X, Y, or Z, or I'm not ready for X, Y, or Z, and I think that's fantastic too. Because ultimately it's about the child, right? We want that child to go into a well adjusted home where the parents have dealt with their own stuff and are able to parent their child without putting their own feelings on their child. So I'll give you a little story that I share in those training classes that illustrates this point. My same aunt that I brought up earlier is my inspiration to join the adoption world. I didn't ask her about her own feelings regarding her adoption until I had been in the adoption community for about five years. I had already worked in the adoption field for that long before I finally said to her, What was it like for you to be an adoptee growing up? And she said to me things that I was like completely floored by. She basically told me that she never felt like she fit entirely into the family. And from my perspective, I was like, what do you mean? You absolutely fit into the family, right? You're my aunt. Nobody views you any differently. And she said, no, it's not that it's that I look different than the family. And I I have these different skill sets that I don't know where they came from. I don't know why I'm interested in this certain thing. And she said, I really would love to know my birth family. I would love to know where I came from, but I will not do it until grandma, her mom. Guys, because she said, I can't do that to her. It would just ruin her to think that I was interested in knowing where I came from. And she shared some stories that kind of illustrated that point for her that like my grandma had some hard times and had shut down conversations about my aunt asking about her background. So she told me this story and sadly, two months later, my aunt passed away and never got answers to those questions that. She sought in this lifetime. My grandmother, on the other hand, is still alive. So all these years later, my aunt passed away about 10 years ago, and my grandmother is still alive. And I really remember leaving that conversation thinking, it is so devastating to me that my aunt didn't feel that she could find those answers to those pieces of herself because she was protecting my grandma's feelings. So like the point I made is you have to, as an adoptive couple, you have to do your own work so that you can support your child when they come to you and say, I want to know where I come from. And these days, open adoption is very common, like they're going to have some knowledge from the beginning, but your own feelings around but I'm your mom. You can't go seek out another mom. Like I'm your mom, that has to be dealt with so that you can say to your child in that moment. Great. There's more people to love you and it's an important part of you to know that you like math because your birth mom or your birth dad likes math. That's important. That's an important part of you. And I support that knowledge of who you are. So those are some of the things we talk about in the training classes. And like I said, there are some couples that come out and say, I'm, I can't do this. And I think that's fantastic. That's okay.

Joni: 21:25

Yeah. Better to be educated beforehand to make that decision before you bring a small human into, that situation. And yeah, that's really cool that you offer. So much education beforehand. Is that typical? Is that, do most adoption agencies offer, or I don't know if you, do you guys call yourself in an agency because it's different?

Kim: 21:46

Yeah, we call ourselves like a adoption service provider. Because agency implies that we do the matching and that we have the license to do that and we don't. But no, it isn't really common. There isn't a requirement, there is not an education requirement by state statute for adoption, for adoptive couples to do education. We believe personally that it's important, so we require it of our couples. So if an adoptive couple comes to us and says I refuse to do the education, we'll say we're not the right fit for you. Move on. That's okay. You can move on to somebody else that doesn't require that.

Joni: 22:18

Yeah, that's interesting. I feel like that's a really healthy requirement to kind of know what journey you're getting into. I did want to talk about the open adoption thing because it is so common now. It seems like and you said that. So when did it make that transition from like more closed adoptions to open adoptions? What were the reasons around it? Is it recent or is it been going on longer than I am aware of?

Kim: 22:43

Open adoption has been the norm since I've worked in the adoption field. So about 15 years at least. I would say probably around the 20 year mark, 20 years ago or so, it became the norm. That there's a level of openness in adoption. And I think it's because we in the adoption community, those of us that are adoption service providers that work in this community recognize that it's the healthiest. By far for the child, particularly. Again, if you're thinking about, there's a triad in adoption. There's the child at the top, the adoptive parents and the birth parents. The child is by far the most important person in that triad. And just like my aunt's story illustrates, adoptees of the olden days. Not always, but often would grow up wondering who am I? Where do I come from? What's my ethnicity? Who do I look like, basic questions that I think are innate in us as human beings that they didn't have answers to and so open adoption just opens that door for them to have those questions answered and it has turned into more commonly That there's some level of relationship between the birth parents and the adoptive parents, and we highly support that and find it to be a healthy thing. It helps the child grow up well adjusted knowing who they come from and where they come from. There aren't questions, there isn't that like crazy sit down moment when they learn, oh my gosh, it was adopted. They just grow up knowing. And I know a common question is isn't the child gonna be confused? And the answer is no, they're not confused. They know who their parents are. They know who raises them day in, day out. We also do an adoptee panel at our training classes and we try and get a few kids usually on the panel and we'll always ask them this question because you know the audience members are like are you going to view me as your mom? And the kids always just roll their eyes and they're like, yes, I know that's my mom. I know that's my dad. This other person is my birth mom or my birth dad. And they call them by their name. They call them by their first name generally. And they're just like. That's the person that gave birth to me, but here's who's raising me? But yeah, we find it helps adoptees become more well adjusted and it also helps birth parents with their grieving process You know, I can't imagine. I'm a mom. I can't imagine leaving The hospital without a baby that I gave birth to and not knowing anything about that child ever again. I just can't imagine that, right? And I think there's a little bit of a stigma around birth parents thinking that they're all mentally ill or on drugs or unstable in a lot of ways and that just isn't the case. The people who are choosing to place their babies for adoption are generally none of those things. They are well adjusted, they are mature, they have their heads on straight. They're normal people who, for whatever reason, feel like this isn't the best situation or time for them to parent a baby. And all the birth parents that I've worked with over the years, There are very few that I would not have be involved in my life. Very few. There are generally very normal, lovable people. So there isn't a reason really to not involve them. So yeah. So that's why open adoption is now like the norm and what we advocate for, what we recommend. Just a few other reasons.

Joni: 25:41

Yeah, that's helpful. I have questions about I'm going back. So you said one of your coworkers will be the social worker for the Birth parents. When you say expectant parents, was that the birth parents or the adoptive parents?

Kim: 25:54

So we use the term expectant parents when they haven't yet delivered the baby. Birth parent, once they've delivered the baby, it's Thing that doesn't matter so much to people but to birth parents who have actually placed that is an important distinction They're not a birth parent until they place the baby Because again, it takes away that element of choice for them. They're not a birth parent until they sign the legal paperwork They're still an expectant mom or a mom until they relinquish those rights

Joni: 26:23

That's really helpful. So the expectant parent, is it okay if they're like outside of Utah can you work across state lines? Does that bring up any issues? If you're adopting baby in Florida do you have to deal with different laws and know those laws to be able to Help the parents with that.

Kim: 26:43

That's a great question. Yes, you can adopt across state lines. That's totally fine. In a private adoption, it would just mean that you hire an attorney in the state where the birth parents reside or the expectant parents reside and then they do all the legal services there. You have an attorney in your state as well. The costs are going to be a little bit more obviously, because you're hiring two attorneys, but it's definitely doable and it's common. It happens all the time. Oh, and then there is a law called ICPC, the interstate compact for the placement of children. And that's where the two states have to talk to each other and pass paperwork back and forth and show that it's a legal adoption before the child crosses state lines. But the two attorneys take care of that process. For them.

Joni: 27:23

You said in Utah, there's as soon as the termination of rights was signed, or the, I'm getting all these words messed up, I'm sorry. As soon as that's signed then they can't change their minds. Is that different in other states?

Kim: 27:36

It varies from state to state. A lot of states have a no revocation period, like Utah, where you cannot change your mind. There are some states that say you can change your mind for 30 days or 45 days or whatever, and that's hard.

Joni: 27:49

I imagine that's where some of those really hard stories come up, is like, they can still change their mind, and they do change their mind.

Kim: 27:58

totally.

Joni: 27:58

Oof, that would be tough. As the adopted parents, that would be tough. I guess as the birth parents, that's great that they have that option, if they wanted to take it. Ugh, that's so tough though, to be like an advocate for one side, and to be cheering on the other side. You guys are in an interesting spot.

Kim: 28:17

it's true. Yeah, it's true.

Joni: 28:18

Can you talk a little bit about ethical adoption and what makes an adoption ethical and things to look out for, maybe? To make sure that you're, like, working with a good agency or company to ethically adopt.

Kim: 28:33

That's a real soapbox item for me. Like, Ethics are really important to me in the adoption world. I would say you have to really look out for any type of coercion and that can look like offering gifts or money or things like that. That's against the law, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It does happen sometimes. And so anything that's enticing someone to place their baby for adoption when it's not 100 percent their choice. is unethical. So there have been situations, there's been some agencies in Utah that have been shut down for and this is common, they'll fly expectant parents in from out of state. They'll advertise in out of state areas that are poorer and bring those expectant parents to Utah and have them stay here, because we have really lax laws, comparatively. Relaxed laws around adoption. They'll bring them here, they'll house them here for their entire pregnancy. Pay for all their expenses while they're pregnant and then hand them a lump sum of cash when they're done being pregnant and say, get on a plane in two days and go home. And so then it just creates this cycle of this is a job for them. This becomes something that this is how they're paying their bills. This is how they're living. And so that can be really a tricky line. There, I, there's always a place for like supporting an expectant parent financially through their pregnancy. To an extent like pregnancy related expenses are allowable to be paid by the state of Utah But that you know can be stretched a little bit into too much financial support or if they're being offered You know something of value when they place the baby, then that's a red flag for sure Avoiding birth father rights is another ethical dilemma that there's two sides to the coin on that. But in the most ethical type of adoptions, the birth father should be acknowledged if we know who he is. Sometimes we don't, and that's okay. If at all possible, the birth father should be acknowledged and should have an option to consent to the adoption. So I think too often birth father rights are ignored or just oh, we don't need to deal with that person. But, he's an important part of the equation as well. It's just a dilemma sometimes. So if possible, he should be involved. So those are just a couple.

Joni: 30:44

Yeah, that's helpful. It seems I had heard that term a while ago and I'm like, I wouldn't even know what to look out for. I guess there's people everywhere that can take advantage of situations, but I don't know. I just don't think about it. So that's helpful to be aware of that. Can we talk about post adoption? Depression, anxiety. Yeah, just like how common it is. just anything about it because I did interview somebody, a Utah mom who did adopt and she was so surprised when she was struggling after she adopted. she's like, I was looking everywhere and I. I wasn't Googling the right things to validate my experience. So yeah, can you just talk about that?

Kim: 31:21

yes. I think adoptive couples. Assume that when they have a baby that they've longed for a very long time and they've put a lot of time and years and money and effort, they've exhausted all these other paths and then all of a sudden they have this infant in their home that they've wanted more than anything. I think that they expect that there's going to be just this euphoria and it's going to be just this magical experience. Sometimes it is. But sometimes it's not, sometimes they have the same feelings that someone does who brings home a biological baby because it's a really tough adjustment and you're not sleeping. Maybe you don't have the same hormones going on, but you still have a major adjustment going on in your life. And often they're like we talked about before, they're involving a birth family. And so there's extra dynamics with that and making sure that they're feeling taken care of because they're grieving and sometimes they take on their grief. So the emotions post adoption can be really complex. And I like to normalize for people that it's okay to feel some anxiety and some depression. And not just okay, but it's relatively normal. It's a major adjustment. But I think where people are a little more hesitant to talk about it sometimes is that they feel guilty. They feel guilty that they've wanted this for so long and they have everything they've dreamed of. They have everything they asked their neighbors to talk about for them. They asked everybody to spread the word. The whole community got around them and rallied and they finally have this baby and they feel guilty saying This is hard. I'm having a hard time. I'm sleep deprived. I'm not adjusting well. Sometimes attachment is an issue, sometimes you don't immediately attach to an infant, whether you biologically bring home a baby or adopt a baby. That's a common, again, misconception. And I always normalize that for people too. When they tell me, we do meet with them one time post adoption. And when they say to me like, I'm struggling attaching to this baby. Or vice versa, I always tell them my attachment processes with my biological children were very different. There was one, my first, that I immediately attached to. It was that whole, over the moon, I love her so much, I'm immediately just this is the most amazing thing in the world, I love you, I would do anything for you. My second, my son, I did not have that same experience, right? I saw him in the hospital and I was like, ooh. I kinda, I like you, I think but I don't have that same over the moon love for you. And that took time to develop. It took me waking up with him at night. It took me spending time with him, doing skin on skin time, feeding him. Doing all those things, and it probably took several months before I felt like I had that same level of bonding with him. Has it damaged our relationship at all? No. My kids are now, these two that I'm talking about are now 14 and 12. And you would not know the difference, right? My son doesn't know, unless he listens to this podcast, that I had a little bit of a different experience bonding with him, right? He didn't know as an infant, because I still met his needs. I still, day in, day out, did what I needed to do with him. He didn't know how I was feeling. And when I'm talking to adoptive couples who say to me I'm struggling bonding with this baby. I just say, you know what? That is okay. You continue to meet their needs. And guess what? You will develop a bond with that baby. I promise. I've never seen one in all these years that, years later comes to me and says, Yeah, I still don't really have a bond with this kid. No, you will. I promise you will. Deal with some of those factors in the beginning and all the hardships and the adjustment and it'll come.

Joni: 34:52

I think if I was going through that, I would worry, are we not connecting because I am not your biological mom? Is that the concern? Like the attachment is not happening because I didn't carry you and I guess it's that common.

Kim: 35:04

Yes. And I think that's the fear, right? That's the worry that they have, where my experience that I try and share with them is that like, this is normal across the board for people. We just attach differently to infants. And I know from an attachment perspective, we have an attachment specialist that comes to our training classes, too, who's a Ph. D. at the University of Utah, and he is phenomenal, and he talks about that attachment process, and babies, from, baby standpoint, they attach to whoever meets their needs, and so they're going to attach to those adoptive parents, Because they're providing care to them, and they're holding them, and they're loving them, and they're feeding them bottles, and they're doing all that stuff. And I can see it when I see these couples after they've adopted the baby. You can tell that those babies are attached to the adoptive parents. They respond to them in the way that a biological child responds to their parents, right? It's not a concern about whether that can occur. It absolutely can. But the adoptive couple, of course the fear is like, Oh, it's because you didn't hear my heart or feel my heartbeat. And I was trying to tell him like it's both. It's a both experience because I do believe that a baby still can hear and know their birth parents heartbeat too. And that they may still have some connection to that birth mom, even when they've been bonding with an adoptive couple. So it's not a mutually exclusive event. They can have attachment to both and that is okay. So like if the birth mom comes around and the baby. Snuggles up to her and seems content and comfortable there too. That's okay. It's not a bad thing, right? my personal belief, I don't think this can really be studied because you can't really study a baby, and they're bonding in utero. They can't tell us. But my personal belief is that they do retain some sort of connection to their birth mom and they do still know her, for a time after the birth. But that doesn't take away from the fact that they can also bond with an adoptive couple.

Joni: 36:56

I like that you said earlier that it's it's more people that love this kid. That just sounds like it's a hard thing to adjust to when you were always expecting to have biological children and you're like, yeah, there's no one else. It's us. But even then there's like a village of people who support that baby, whether it's friends or grandparents or aunts, uncles siblings. It's just like so different because it's not someone you actively chose to have in your circle before having a child, and then now you're like actively choosing to have them in your circle. So yeah, that seems, it seems difficult to navigate for

Kim: 37:32

Yeah,

Joni: 37:33

and just talking it out seems helpful.

Kim: 37:35

it is. And I will say to that we didn't talk about this yet, but I have two daughters that were adopted from Ecuador. So my two oldest kids are 18 and almost 19 now. But they came in different orders. So I had some biological kids and we adopted some, and then I have one more. It's a crazy story, but my oldest she is. It's almost 19 and they do not have an open adoption. Neither of my girls do because they came from Ecuador. They came from orphanages. It wasn't the same type of situation, so I'm on the other side of this, navigating my 19 year olds emotions around the fact that she doesn't have those relationships and it is difficult. And I will tell you that as a parent. I want nothing more than for her to have those pieces of her identity filled in for her. And I would give anything. I would do anything. We've done everything we possibly can to help her figure those things out, but I can't. And as a parent, my heart hurts for her because I can't fill in those pieces. And I know how important it is, having seen it on the other side. It devastates me that I can't say to her, this is who your birth mom is. This is what she looks like. This is where you get this certain talent. This is where, X, Y, Z. And because she doesn't have the pieces, she doesn't have the answers. She makes it up, right? She has to fill in the gap in her head somehow. And so she tells herself a story about who she believes this person is. And that's fine, but it doesn't actually fill the hole, she needs to have those answers. And so as an adoptive mom too, like I, I want that for her

Joni: 39:10

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, Kim. I think that gives a really different perspective. One last thing about the post adoption depression, so having postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, regardless of whether they're your biological kid or your adopted child impacts attachment. And so if someone is going through that, it makes sense that they may just struggle to attach to their kid. And that doesn't mean the kid's not attaching to them, but they may not feel that just love and connection immediately. But you're right. I think that's very hopeful. Like it's hard in the moment when you're feeling that, but like with meeting their needs and over time, it's going to develop because that's how humans work. So thanks for bringing that up. I feel like I asked a lot of the questions I wanted to ask. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you would want to share with someone who's potentially looking to adopt?

Kim: 40:05

I think we covered a ton of it too, like really just that it's a little bit of work. I've maybe made it sound like so hard that no one would ever want to do this, like why in the world would you want to do this, right? Because it's just like I've pointed out all the realities of the adoption world. I would also say it's a wonderful, beautiful, amazing way to build your family. Just as valid, just as good. As building your family in any other way. And I'm an advocate for people to build their families in whatever way is meaningful to them. I think everyone who wants to be a parent deserves to be a parent and you're not any less of a family. If you adopt your children. And take on this whole other world, like it is really a wonderful way to have a family. And like I said, the day to day, it really is the same. You're parenting a child and that can bring a lot of joy and hardship and, lots of feelings and all the things, but it's a perfectly valid way to be a family.

Joni: 41:04

That's beautiful. Great way to end it. If someone wants to contact you guys, what's the best way to get ahold of you?

Kim: 41:11

So we have a website, it's utahadoptionspecialists. com. And you can email us, you can call us, all of our information is on that website, so you can find us there. That's probably the best way, is just to go and then call or email, depending on what you want to do.

Joni: 41:23

Okay, awesome. And how many social workers are at your company?

Kim: 41:28

have three of us that co own the company, and so we do the majority of the work. Lauren, Andrews, Crystal, Lea Ayatoa, and myself. And then we have four or five, off the top of my head, contractors, that we contract with if we need additional help for certain services and things like that. Yeah. Nine or 10 of us total.

Joni: 41:48

Very cool. Thank you for your time, Kim. I learned a lot, and I think it's helpful if someone's just thinking about getting into the world of adoption, to have some more education around it. Even if it's a lot of the hard stuff, it's nice to know beforehand what potentially might come up for you. So thank you for your time.

Kim: 42:06

You're welcome.

Joni: 42:17

Okay. And that's all I got today. I will be sure to link the Utah adoption specialists website in the show notes. I looked at the website and they have like an FAQ section that goes over a lot of what we talked about, but maybe will it be able to answer a few more questions for you?,You can look at waiting family profiles. Wow. This is interesting. You can click on waiting family profiles. If you perhaps know an expectant parent and can potentially connect them with a hopeful adoptive family. And then there's contact information. They talk about the services they offer and pricing. So if that's something that you're wanting to learn more about, definitely go to their website and check them out. Last thing is if you do have just five seconds to just click the five star button. On the podcast page on apple podcasts. It would be really helpful for people to find this page who potentially could benefit from it. So. I always say, I don't do this to make money. I literally just do this to help women. And people find resources and feel more supported. So. It does not serve me, but it might serve somebody else. And anyways, that's all I have. And I'll see you next week.