31. Anger and Motherhood with Hannah Sawitsky, CMHC

Hannah Sawitsky is a therapist and a doula who has a private practice up in Logan, UT called Nova Therapy and Doula Services. We talk with her about emotions and embodying those emotions, specifically feeling mad. Hannah found that she started working with a lot of 40-something mothers who were feeling unsatisfied with their life, even though from the outside they felt like they had a great life. We draw parallels between newly postpartum women and women who are 15-20 years out from the postpartum experience. Much of their frustration stems from not getting their needs met. If you’re someone who has a difficult time feeling emotions, this will be an excellent episode for you. Let’s get started. 

Get to know Hannah on her instagram @thrivewithnova

Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club

Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club

Transcript

Joni: 0:00

Hi guys. Welcome back to the sad moms club. Today. We have Hannah Sawitsky, who is a therapist and a doula. She has her own private practice up in Logan, Utah called Nova therapy and doula services. Hannah and I talk a lot about emotions and embodying those emotions, specifically, feeling mad. Hannah found that she started working with a lot of 40 something mothers who were feeling unsatisfied with their life, even though from the outside, it would look like they have everything they ever wanted. We draw parallels between nearly postpartum women and women who are 15 to 20 years out from postpartum. Much of these mothers frustrations are around not getting their needs met. We go into a whole lot more details than that but i'll just say if you've been feeling unsatisfied Angry or sad This could be a really excellent episode for you I'll let you listen to hannah explain it better than i will in this little synopsis so let's get started Is easier to always be recording ABR, always be recording. I just like to remind people we can cut out as much as you want. If you said something that you're like, I said that totally wrong, just say let me say that again and I'll cut everything out. I do that too. You will hear me do it today because I word my questions poorly.

Hannah: 1:32

I'm just gonna try to approach it with not trying to be perfect at it and

Joni: 1:37

I love it.

Hannah: 1:38

yeah.

Joni: 1:39

I think that's great. It comes through a lot more authentic when you're not trying to be super perfect. Okay. Hannah, do you mind saying your first and last name, because I'm going to say your last name wrong, and just start by introducing yourself and what you do.

Hannah: 1:55

Sure. My name is Hannah Sawitzky, and I am a therapist and doula up in Cache Valley, Utah. And Logan.

Joni: 2:06

Where did you start your professional career? Was it in the therapy side? Was it in the doula side? And how did they come together?

Hannah: 2:13

Yeah, I don't know how far back you want me to go.

Joni: 2:16

As far back As you want. We got an hour, so.

Hannah: 2:18

I went to grad school in Oregon, And after I graduated, my husband and I we could live anywhere because I could probably get a therapy job anywhere. So he ended up getting a job in Logan, which was a surprise to us. We didn't necessarily see ourselves moving here. But once I moved here, I got a job at a residential. Eating Disorder Center. So I was there through all my licensure and then four and a half ish years in, I started my private practice. And part of what inspired that was I had my first baby in the very end of 2019. So I didn't know that I was having a pandemic baby, but then I did have a pandemic baby. I had a pretty normal maternity leave and then basically the week I went back to work was the week the whole world shut down. But during that, just becoming a mom, I really wished that I had somewhere to go. I really wanted to go to my doctor's office and have them say, Oh, there's a postpartum group that meets every Thursday and you can go to it. It didn't exist. There wasn't anything like that around here. I tried a couple online groups with varying success. There was one I went to a couple times and I was the only person there. And the facilitators didn't have kids, wasn't really that sort of Oh, I found some other mom I could talk to. They were like, that sounds hard. Which is all the empathy stuff we learn as therapists, but I wanted to talk to other moms. Probably like mid to end of 2020, I decided to get trained as a doula I thought that would be the best way for me to provide what I didn't have. And when I started forming my business, my doula business, I was putting in all the work to come up with a name and a logo and a website. Then just decided to go full send and start the therapy practice at the same time instead of trying to work at a facility and be a doula.

Joni: 4:26

Do you do both right now? Your business is still both.

Hannah: 4:29

It's still both. I tell people that I do 99 percent therapy and less doula work. And as a doula, I think my passion is moving more toward postpartum preparation and postpartum support. I really love going to births. But it's not a high percentage of the people that I'm seeing, it's mostly postpartum.

Joni: 4:54

Gotcha. And so when did you find out about being a perinatal therapist is an option as a specialty?

Hannah: 5:01

Yeah, I'm thinking it was around the same time that I was building my business that I found Postpartum Support International, and I did their... I guess it's called the Components of Care training, but I did their training and everything was virtual then. Nobody was doing in person. So I did my training online through the Saleni Institute and did a perinatal mood disorders section and then a grief and loss training with that kind of around the same time I did my doula.

Joni: 5:38

Very cool. Okay. So today we're going to talk about a population you accidentally fell into. So you describe them as these 40 something women that are coming in for therapy. So can you paint the picture of what this type of person looks like, what they're talking about what they're coming in for? Who is this person? Thank you.

Hannah: 6:00

Yes. So this is my accidental niche. I think I got maybe one or two clients that found me and then they started telling all of their friends to come and see me. So this group of women, they don't have to be in their forties, but they Often, or mostly are, and they have kids who are older school age, like over elementary school age, generally, or grown. They might be out of the house. A lot of them have gone through a faith transition, but not all of them. I think a theme is that they got married young. They had kids because that's what they were supposed to do. And then they raised their kids. That That was their assumed role and the role that they had anticipated and planned to have. And then their kids get older and suddenly child rearing is not taking up all of their time anymore. That the role changes and so they're left wondering who they are. Suddenly, and maybe not suddenly, but when they come to see me, it's gotten to a point where they aren't happy. one thing I hear a lot is, everything in my life is really good, so I don't know why I'm so sad. I have a great partner. We have a wonderful house. I have a wonderful family. What is there for me to complain about? But they just are experiencing this kind of unresolving sadness or sense of loss or I don't know who I am

Joni: 7:40

Yeah. Maybe like a lack of fulfillment, a loss of identity. Yeah, that totally makes sense. I feel like I see some of that when people are experiencing postpartum depression, but if it doesn't get talked about then it can carry throughout their motherhood. Do you see like similarities between this population that you're working with and like your younger postpartum moms?

Hannah: 8:03

I do, actually. I've probably seen three or four very young moms recently that are in their early twenties who got married and have now had their first baby. But for several of them, their pregnancy, they were They got pregnant before they expected to, and it's not that they didn't ever want to be parents, that was in their plan, but it happened sooner than they wanted, and that interrupted plans they had for their education, or plans that they had for their career, and they feel very uncomfortable with, boxed in about what their options are now of I'm supposed to be a stay at home mom or I'm Supposed to prioritize being a mom now over the goals that I had for myself as a person I also hear that they feel a responsibility to put aside their hopes and dreams for their partners that he's gonna finish his schooling first and then I can go back to school later And in my 40 something group, if this is a common theme that they went through but didn't get addressed is they put their dreams on the back burner 10 to 20 years ago and it's catching up to them now

Joni: 9:32

Yeah,

Hannah: 9:33

they've realized that they didn't pursue the things that they were hoping to do. And that affects their self confidence, their sense of identity,

Joni: 9:45

totally.

Hannah: 9:45

these different pieces.

Joni: 9:47

Yeah, I think that's a really good point, and especially coming from a state that is more conservative, and there is typically a religion that many people fall into it seems to be a pattern that women tend to prioritize childbearing, childrearing over Other things and for some people that works great and then for other people that is not Fulfilling for them and at some point it comes to a head whether that's postpartum pretty quickly or you know a few years down the line or once they start having a lot more time and they're like Oh my gosh, what? What, who am I, what do I do with all this time? Because my whole life was these kids and now these kids are starting to function on their own and they don't need me as much.

Hannah: 10:31

Yeah.

Joni: 10:33

That's really interesting.

Hannah: 10:34

one of the other parts, like when you said coming to a head, something I really appreciate the women who come right away, like in that first year, is that they might not really know why they're struggling, or what they're struggling with, but are doing something about it, because it would be very easy to just have the idea of, I'm supposed to be quiet about this, and not share my whole experience, and not say that I have Any anger or sadness or fear about being a parent, and it gets brushed under the rug. And I think that's another common theme is just speaking the unspeakable.

Joni: 11:22

Yeah, I think there's like a lot to that. There's the part where I'm not supposed to be feeling this way. And then there's the part that's I I don't even know what it is. Like I don't even know how to put words around this. These are new needs that I wasn't aware of. That was something that. Was said on a recent podcast episode, they're like, you start having these needs that you didn't even know you had before. And so you don't know how to even say anything's wrong because it's like, nothing's wrong, but something doesn't feel right inside of me and I don't know how to explore that. And there's probably even more reasons why.

Hannah: 11:58

And that sounds so much like what the 40 somethings are saying is nothing's wrong. So I don't know why I feel this way.

Joni: 12:07

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. So I feel like we are getting an idea of who this person is, whether they're like late thirties, forties, or maybe if they're in any stage of motherhood, they might be able to identify with this. So if someone's coming to you and saying that maybe let's start with I don't even know why, but I'm not feeling fulfilled. Like how do you even start exploring that with them?

Hannah: 12:29

Yeah, I'm just holding the image of these clients in my mind and sitting down with them. Because I think my primary role when they first come in is. To validate that everything in their life might be beautiful, might be the, this is supposed to be how it is and I should feel good about it, and that their feelings are still real. That the goal of therapy isn't to talk them out of feeling that way, it's to dig deeper into it. So just a lot of, it's okay that you have a wonderful life and still have a feeling about it.

Joni: 13:12

I feel like I hear a lot of people comparing their suffering I don't have this I don't have that like what's wrong with me? I must not be able to handle life because

Hannah: 13:21

Oh, I should be grateful. I hear a lot. I should be grateful for what I have. I shouldn't want anything else.

Joni: 13:30

Like you just said, there's room for like so many things. You can be grateful for what you have and be unhappy. That doesn't mean you're not grateful. That means you have two things going on. At least two emotions and experiences going on at the same time.

Hannah: 13:43

And early motherhood. I like that you're drawing the comparison because early motherhood. There's this immense gain, there's this immense joy in change, and there's loss of who you were before, your freedom, what your marriage was like before, and that, that doesn't change later in our life. There always can be both things.

Joni: 14:10

Yeah. And I wonder if some of these moms you're working with who are, In their late 30s, 40s, if they just were able to push it aside for a while and they're so busy with day to day tasks because children's needs are so immediate that they can be distracted from those feelings for a while until now there's nothing to fill the space. And so they're like, okay, now I have to feel that grief. I have to feel those losses. And I also now have the time to do something about it, but do I feel good enough for that? Do I feel smart enough for that? Am I still capable of making a change in a career when I have children and I've been putting my partners I've been putting everyone's needs before my own. And now it might be my turn, but I don't even know what I want or what I like or what I need.

Hannah: 14:55

Yeah, I don't know what I want, I don't know how to ask for it. They might not have any practice of stating their wants or getting their needs and wants met if they're doing what you described, which is prioritizing everybody else.

Joni: 15:13

Again, it's something all moms that I'm seeing, no matter what age, struggle to ask for their needs to be met because they're... Down here and everyone else's needs are prioritized over them And so I had a mentor that said we're not saying let's bring your needs above everyone else's but just equal like your needs Also matter and so helping them have a voice and say what they need Okay, so you said you start with letting them tell their story and being like, yeah that's okay. You can experience that. I'm not judging you. There's no shame in that. What other types of things do you do with them?

Hannah: 15:46

the foundation of what I do with my clients in therapy is, I guess I would describe it as embodiment, emotion focused, somatic focused. So getting into your sensations so that you can start to understand what your body's trying to communicate to you about your feelings. So some people are very ready to do this, that when I say. What do you notice in your body? They can answer right away and say, my chest feels really tight, or I have butterflies in my stomach, my jaws tense, that it's right there for them. And for others, it feels like such foreign of a question that I have to go back and rephrase it or even describe what a sensation might be. And I'll start with things, if we're not ready to get into the guts of it all, how does your butt feel on the couch? Can you feel your clothes against your body? And that's starting to be the pathway, but understanding where they are in their body, because so much of that emotional information comes from our sensation. And if we've blocked that out, then of course we wouldn't know what we wanted.

Joni: 17:11

Why do you like to start there? What about that is helpful for you as the therapist and helpful for them as the client?

Hannah: 17:20

It gives me a sense of how emotionally conscious they are. And a lot of times I'll describe. Let's look below your neck because it's very easy and culturally I think this is the norm to talk about our feelings and be up in our heads about what we're feeling, why we're feeling it, and we could swirl around all day in our thoughts, but it's like coming down past your neck to notice, oh, my shoulders are actually really tight or something's wrong with my shoulder. I can barely breathe and one thing I'll hear a lot is my shoulders feel normal, but what's normal for you? Is normal relaxed? Is normal tight all the time? I want to know that.

Joni: 18:17

Do you find people get frustrated with this if they're not comfortable with it? They're like, I don't know. I don't know, Hannah.

Hannah: 18:25

My first response was you'd have to ask them. It might be temporary frustration, but I think that I've learned over time through being in my practice, that I can gauge this to where they're at, and so I'm not pushing them to notice something that they really don't have any awareness of. I just get a sense of how ready they are to be in their body, and we just start there instead of, why don't you know the full depth of your in her experience.

Joni: 18:59

okay, that's helpful. So if someone's like, I'm feeling some chest tightness, I'm feeling a little short of breath, I have like some stomach discomfort. What are you doing with that? If someone was listening at home, is there something they could be like, okay, I'm starting to notice things. So what?

Hannah: 19:15

Yeah. We can just do your example. You can be my fake client. I'll walk you through it. So if you were sitting in my office and you said, my chest feels tight and your stomach, I'd say, which one of those things feels the loudest? What's getting your attention the most?

Joni: 19:33

Mmm, My stomach.

Hannah: 19:36

Okay. Can you describe the quality of the sensation in your stomach? What's it like?

Joni: 19:43

Maybe, not like a pit in my stomach, but like a little bit of a heaviness.

Hannah: 19:51

Okay, the goal is to get to the point where you can feel this sensation as big as it wants to be. With someone who's coming in for the first time, they might not be ready for that stomach heaviness to be as big as it really is. So my disclaimer is always, the invitation is to let that heaviness in your stomach get as big as it wants to be. But you call the shots. If you reach a point where you can't tolerate it, or you need a break, you get to say. And also I will say, we're not trying to change this feeling at all. We're not trying to make it go away. I think that's what we do a lot, is we notice something in our body, and we're putting a lot of attention on, I'm gonna relax this, I'm gonna make this tension go away. But this is almost the opposite we're gonna let it get big, so it can go on its way. Or so we can understand what it's trying to say. So I'd say next, Joni, okay, as you're breathing, just let the energy from your breath, Go to that heaviness in your stomach and you're basically saying to it, okay, I'm listening now. What is it that you want me to know?

Joni: 21:10

For me, it might be, I feel a little, I feel nervous when I do these interviews. There's some some nervousness.

Hannah: 21:17

Yeah. Some fear. Yeah. Perfect. So the message is super clear. Oh, there's fear and feel scared. What's the risk when you do podcast interviews?

Joni: 21:31

Like what is it that I'm nervous about? I'm nervous it's not going to go well. I'm nervous that I'm going to offend someone a lot. I'm nervous that they will feel like I'm not professional or that it's not worth their time, um, that they didn't get to say what they wanted to because I didn't ask good questions. Yeah. A lot of things come up for me,

Hannah: 21:59

That's perfect. I'll describe the cheat sheet, but I'd also be happy to give this to you if you wanted to put it on the podcast links, fear is cluing us into some kind of risk. That risk can be real or imagined. And the important part is that it feels real. That we're not there to argue whether or not it's a valid risk. Just says, there's a risk here. I'm taking a risk. Sadness says there's a loss. So if someone is in their chest and they're, you know, have that heaviness in their chest or it just feels, I've been picturing like black. My body kind of does colors, but okay, what is the loss here for me? What have I lost? What could I lose? Mad is what am I getting that I don't want? And what am I not getting that I want? So MAD is so valuable in putting up that boundary and saying, I don't want this. This isn't what I wanted.

Joni: 23:11

or I do want this,

Hannah: 23:13

Or like the tantrum y toddler part of us, that's I'm not getting what I want. And I love validating that part because we grow up and we learn that we can't throw tantrums, but we lose touch with the part that's saying, no, I need to get my needs met. So, So many of these moms, immediately postpartum or 15 years postpartum, are really in there saying, I'm not getting what I want.

Joni: 23:44

I'm mad, I'm pissed.

Hannah: 23:47

Yes. Almost every first session, are you mad? they don't want to say it out loud. It's usually a nod. Okay. Are you allowed to be mad? Maybe. No. No. Are you allowed to say that you're mad? No. Nine times out of 10.

Joni: 24:10

So are those the, just backing up real quick, are those the three emotions that you typically are working through is fear, sadness, and anger? Yeah.

Hannah: 24:18

Yeah. So I. I think of the feelings wheel that has like hundreds of emotions listed. I am on the far other end of the spectrum, so I use five. Mad, sad, scared. Glad. Happy. Or sexual.

Joni: 24:37

Okay. What are the other two with the happy one? Are there questions you have with that one?

Hannah: 24:42

Yeah it's, I have to look it up, because I'm like never there, right?

Joni: 24:47

Yeah. No one's wow, I feel really good today and no qualms.

Hannah: 24:51

cannot understand why I feel so good. There are questions for it. My mentor, my supervisor that I have been working with for years, her name is Julie Caldwell. She's based in Boulder, Colorado. She, She built this foundation for me in terms of how I approach things with my clients and it has been such a valuable framework to work from over time that it's applicable with my really young clients. It's applicable with my six year old clients that we all have this common experience of having a body and being in a body that has sensations.

Joni: 25:36

It's sometimes easier to talk about sensations than trauma. It's an easier starting point, maybe. Even if someone doesn't have the vocabulary for it, it's like something that feels a little, it is literally more tangible than memories or why you react a certain way when something happens.

Hannah: 25:53

Yeah. And in trauma, you might be cutting off the awareness of those sensations because it's safer. So it's very common for clients who have experienced trauma to not be in their bodies. It's not

Joni: 26:09

Yeah.

Hannah: 26:11

So the glad or sexual questions would be, what am I celebrating or enjoying?

Joni: 26:17

Okay.

Hannah: 26:18

What's going well?

Joni: 26:20

I think it's good to also notice those. It's cool to be curious about when we're feeling well. What did I do today? Or what is going on? When have I last felt like this? What's the common thread? Is there something here that I should be prioritizing in my life? Because it does bring me joy.

Hannah: 26:36

Yeah. And if we are trying really hard to not have the quote unquote unpleasant feelings, we really do lose touch with the good ones too. So thinking about my clients who say everything in my life is good. I don't know why I don't feel good. Starting with this emotional piece, if I'm trying not to be mad, and I've tried not to be mad for 20 years, or I don't want to feel sad, or I don't want to feel scared, they are also suppressing sensations that would clue them in to feeling glad or sexual.

Joni: 27:18

Yeah.

Hannah: 27:19

We can't have it both ways.

Joni: 27:22

Yeah, that's a good point. Can we talk about being mad a little bit? You said everyone's mad.

Hannah: 27:29

Everyone is mad.

Joni: 27:30

So something you said to me outside of this podcast episode was that you'll be mad with people or um, I guess you'll let them express their anger in the session. How does that come up and what does that look like?

Hannah: 27:45

Yeah. I'm already kind of like gritting my teeth because it's letting mad be embodied. So right now for you, if you think if I really let my whole body be mad, if I really express my mad, what would I do? For me, I noticed that my fists are ready to get Tight and my jaw gets clenched and I get into this fight position that I'm like want to growl and make noises that we would never let ourselves make and here's where it takes mad from being this is a dangerous emotion To this is like any other emotion and I can be playful with it to move it. So We're standing up a lot in my sessions I don't stay in my chair ever Probably but I'm encouraging my clients to stand up. We are pushing against the wall. We're pushing against each other I'll put my hands up for them to push against me. It feels so dang good to feel Resistance against something In MADD, because that's really that quality of boundaries getting pushed or pushing for what you want that we never let ourselves experience that. There's a lot of the physical component. And a lot of times we'll just leave the talking or explaining about it out of this. I just want to follow our impulses, stomp our feet, have a tantrum. If you want to lay on the ground and slam your fists on the floor, let's do it. Let's do it in here. Because

Joni: 29:28

you do it

Hannah: 29:28

do it. Yes, I will. And sometimes I think that helps a little bit because someone sitting in a chair suggesting that you roll around on the floor and complain sounds so ridiculous. So I'm always willing to embody it, even if they're not ready to. I'm like, I want to stand up. I want to stop my feet and Then they get that invitation of oh, maybe I could be in my body. And if they don't want to do it in session, we don't. It's all up to them, but I'll say, you could scream when you get in your car if you want, or if you're home alone today, try stomping your feet, because maybe they don't want to do it in front of me. It feels too embarrassing or too much, but The invitation can leave the office with them of give yourself 30 seconds to do this today, even if it's not in here.

Joni: 30:28

That's cool. So if they're doing this, what do you see in your clients? I guess like anecdotally, I don't know what research shows, but what do you see changes in your clients?

Hannah: 30:41

Yeah, so the movement and the somatic part resolves pretty quickly. I think a lot of times we might have the expectation of I need to figure this out and change something to feel better. Where, when we really get into it, in session and their sensation can get as big as it wants, they can follow their impulse, it can be fully expressed, that there's this sort of deep breath moment where it's very clear that the feeling is over. It's oh, okay, wow, I feel so different. My circumstances have not changed, but my body feels completely different about this. Now, than it did when I walked in and it's very palatable to both of us and I think with this work that I really like is there's this limbic resonance piece. So in our brain, our limbic system is designed to connect to other people's limbic system. If I tell you that my jaw is tight, you know what exactly what that feels like in your body. By saying to you that my jaw is tight, I'm creating limbic resonance with you. And that happens with my clients. When they're telling me what's happening in their body, I can experience that also. And we get to move through it together. It's a very collaborative process. And... It's pretty tangible if we haven't finished it. So a lot of times the encouragement will be like, is there more of that you want to do before it's done? Cause that sort of wash over relief feeling will tell you when it's over.

Joni: 32:32

Do people ever I guess with the anger, are they yelling out I hate this? Or are they expressing some of what's going through their head as well? Or is it more just movement based?

Hannah: 32:41

Yeah, there can be words to it. I hate this, I don't want this stop I gotta get out of here. I think a lot of times it's like a short phrase. Or a couple words, and again, we want to go to our heads, so I'll just like stick to that phrase, like just say that over and over again. I don't want this, this isn't what I want. And again, I'm totally willing to be the person who's like, We'll say it in 10 different voices and make a different face and just kind of Demonstrate the oh, I'm feeling this out.

Joni: 33:15

Yeah, that's impressive. That's like a vulnerable side for you too. I'm like imagining me doing this. I'm like, that does sound scary. I guess until you're comfortable with it.

Hannah: 33:26

with practice and I'm bringing my own body into the room I'm bringing myself into the room with this. I don't see my role as a therapist to sit back and not be involved So, I need to be aware of my own stuff, but my sessions are so much better if I'm in my own body

Joni: 33:51

That's cool.

Hannah: 33:51

when I'm asking my clients to be in theirs.

Joni: 33:55

I wanted to ask if someone's feeling more like that sadness or fear, what are they like physical things that they're typically doing? Or that you're encouraging them to do?

Hannah: 34:04

Yeah. The question generally starts with what's the impulse? So we'll do the sensation like we did before. I'll give you kind of like in the body, commonly anger is jaw, fists. Back is super common. Mad. My clients who complain about back aches, I'm usually saying, are you mad? Mad about that? Sadness can be pretty pervasive, but a lot in our chest and shoulders. Our throats are a big signal that can be mad or sad or scared, that's like where our voice or expression comes out. And then scared. tends to land in the belly, generally, but not always. It's really each person over time, figuring out how their body alerts them to a feeling. Like, My nose tingles when I'm really sad, and I just noticed that a couple months ago. So we do the sensation, and then I'm saying, What does your body want to do with this? Will you let it get big? Okay I wanna roll my shoulders or I feel like I wanna curl up into a ball. Sad is often a collapse, so I have a blanket in my office, some people want to wrap up or hide under the blanket, curling their knees up to their chest, laying down in the fetal position sad has a very contracting sort of response a lot of the times. And then scared can be frozen. I'm gonna let my body really turn into that statue, Frozen Fear. Or, it's a, I wanna get the heck out of here, run out of the room, flee response. And, I've never had anybody take me up on this and actually run out, but there would be allowed to. Running in place, hiding. I've had a lot of fun with clients hiding behind the furniture in my office. I'm like, okay, let's hide from the thing. Let's hide from the scary thing. And get behind the chairs or hide under the desk and really give your body permission to do what it is asking for. Cause that's our animal, our mammalian part of our brain is like, Go! Run! Hide! And... We're well behaved humans, and we don't, and it doesn't change what our body's impulse is. So yeah, that's sad and scared.

Joni: 36:40

This is something that we haven't really Explored on the podcast before so it reminds me of the book burnout. Did you read that book by Emily and Amelia Nagoski?

Hannah: 36:51

No, it sounds interesting though. I'll write it down.

Joni: 36:54

She talks about in the beginning how when Animals go through something scary. They shake it off in some way And how we typically don't use our bodies enough to be able to move through the things that we're feeling. So they talk about different ways to Build that into your life because a lot of our life is like sitting and watching and not moving and so Yeah, you might like that book. Or anyone would like that book. She wrote the book come as you are Emily Nagoski, which is more about like

Hannah: 37:23

Oh, I was just listening to that book. Yes, I listened to the audio book and her presentation of it is so funny.

Joni: 37:33

Yeah, she does a great job. She talks about that Burnout and that stress cycle a little bit in that book and she got so much response about that She wrote a whole book about that part. So that one came out second. Thanks for digging into that a little bit and showing us how we can do it even at home if we don't have a therapist who is Hiding with us or screaming

Hannah: 37:54

Yes.

Joni: 37:55

That's great, Sorry, we're going to add anything else to that.

Hannah: 37:58

Yeah, I was going to add one more thing so with the sad collapse, we can be in that and then I'm usually encouraging at some point like, let's unfold. How does the collapse feel different than sitting up straight and taking a deep breath and raising your gaze? So there's another tool called fear melters and I don't know, I don't know if this is where it originated from, but Katie and Gay Hendrix talk a lot about this and they might have been the people who coined this idea. But there's four types of fear. So we have fight, flight, or flee, freeze, and faint. So the fight is what I described before. My fists are tight and I'm ready to go at it with you. And the fear melter for the fight is to ooze. So having your body move like you are melted chocolate or there's melted chocolate. dripping off of a spoon. So getting out of that really tense, aggressive stance and softening your body to get out of fight.

Joni: 39:16

I wish people could see her Hannah right now. She's doing it for you. You can't see it

Hannah: 39:20

I should make a video. I should. make a

Joni: 39:22

should.

Hannah: 39:23

melter for flee is to do a big sumo stance. Plant your feet on the floor hard and squat down. Because it's giving your body the opposite experience of running away. It's like, I'm gonna stay. I'm here. I'm in the ground. Unfreezing, which is common in... Trauma, especially, is wiggling, so starting at the tips of your fingers and tips of your toes and letting that wiggle expand, like then it's in your wrists and your ankles and then it's up in your elbows and your other joints and then your whole body. And for faint, they call this love scoop. So if you get in a foggy, cloudy, confused state when you get scared, to reach your arms out and gather energy or love and bring it towards you. So you're just scooping into your chest, and imagining bringing in love or energy. and accessing those resources that kind of float away if you get scared.

Joni: 40:33

Very cool. Those are helpful tools too. Something you can easily whip out if you're like, I am feeling like I want to run away. So I'm going to be a sumo wrestler right now. And that's cool. Thank you for sharing that. Outside of this more like somatic experiencing, which sounds like it's a pretty big focus in your practice, Are there things that you do talk about? Do you stay away from talking for a while?

Hannah: 40:55

yeah, we're doing both and pretty easily weaving in and out of both talking and feeling. So I've definitely described mostly the somatic moving, not so worried about what's going on in our head stuff. But that isn't. necessarily what we're doing for all 50 minutes. So the other stuff that I really like talking about is personas. And I know in one of your previous episodes you talked about, I think maybe they described them as self states or parts work, an interesting thing about personas and being in your 40s, that I've learned is we start out in our life as just like our pure selves, we come into the world as like a baby and we're just essence at that point. But as our life unfolds, things happen and we develop parts or personas and those show up when we need help. They're usually saying something like, I'm here to protect you from this feeling. I'm going to operate in this way so that you don't have to be scared. And something that happens with personas around our 30s and 40s is they kind of wear out. They stop being so effective. And I think that's another thing that will trigger someone to come to therapy at this point in their lives is all the strategies I've been using up until now aren't working anymore. That the way I held it together, the way I dealt with things. is just not holding up anymore, and so getting to know personas, I have a persona interview that I use, and that's another kind of we act it out. You get to be that part of yourself but a lot of gaining awareness around our personas and how they're showing up and why. Say I'm feeling disconnected from my partner, and that feels very, reactive and not who I want to be with my partner. We're gonna get curious about what part of you is showing up in those interactions. And understanding why it's trying to help you. And then, then once you know, you can do something different. But if you don't have the awareness, it just feels like I'm getting hijacked. And I don't want to act this way, but I keep doing it. Building awareness about personas. We talk a lot about what you expected being a mother to be like, what you expected from your life, and reality. There can be so much loss folded into what I thought this was going to be like and what it's actually like. And for women who have gone through a faith transition, There's also a lot of losses there, or feeling like they don't fit into the world that they're supposed to fit into. Who are their friends? Who's their community? Just as I'm talking, I'm like, there's so many profound losses we can experience throughout parenthood. Losing your kids. They're leaving the house, they don't need you the same way that they used to fear about what your future's gonna look like And I'll write it out. I'll write it out on the whiteboard here's what you thought this was going to be like, and here's what it is like, validate, yeah, this isn't what you pictured. This isn't what you wanted. Maybe.

Joni: 44:43

I feel like that's where it's like,, can be uncomfortable okay, so we're going to feel this now. I mean, Maybe not all right now, but allowing them to sit with it instead of trying to like make it better. Like, Okay, so like, what can we do now to build your identity back and just being like, yeah, this sucks and it's sad and this is what your life is and you do have choices that you can change it, but it's also hard and allowing. to just like witness that and be there.

Hannah: 45:10

Yeah. I worked with this real amazing woman who, we started talking about Kind of her own mother and how she mothered or how she portrayed the motherhood experience and how much my client felt like she didn't fit that mold or what those expectations looked like and just making space for how. Even generationally, or how our own childhood went, how that differs from how we parent. Or, maybe we didn't see the ways our parents struggled and we thought mothering was easy. And then we're confused why it's hard for us. we kind of did this list example, when she was able to see all the expectations attached to how her mom parented and how she actually feels, and then she was able to separate from, this is what I expect of myself as a mom now.

Joni: 46:12

Yeah, I think it's helpful sometimes to actually make note of our expectations because lots of times we're just living and we're not actually aware of am I sad because of an expectation I don't even want to hold on to that I have of myself and so

Hannah: 46:27

It's unconscious. It's unconscious, and that's another thing we'll go into is unconscious commitments. So things that we're getting the same result over and over and we don't know why, that we might be unconsciously committed to that outcome.

Joni: 46:45

Can you give me an example of that?

Hannah: 46:47

I can. Ooh, this could be something like, I really want to have more physical intimacy with my partner, but we get in a fight every night before we go to bed. Or any time that we're gonna go on vacation, or do something fun, or have a date, or we're having a family outing, we get in a fight. So that's an example of where I might be asking, what's the outcome? It's conflict, it's tension, it's disconnection. Why would you be committed? Like, Huh, am I committed to this pattern? And this is a really difficult thing to look in the face, to say, I'm creating the thing that I absolutely do not want. I don't want to be fighting all the time, so why am I committed? And it's starting with I create or I cause. I'm creating conflict when we could be having fun. I'm committed. I'm committed to fighting every night before bed. How is this functioning for me? Huh, okay, maybe I'm scared. Maybe I have pain with sex. Maybe I'm scared of... Like the actual intimacy like I want it, but I'm scared. I'm not happy with our sex life So I don't know how to ask for what I want So I'm gonna pick a fight before bed, so we don't have to go there as a possibility

Joni: 48:22

Yeah, that's helpful.

Hannah: 48:23

Yeah, so then you're okay. I can make a new commitment and work through the barriers and tools.

Joni: 48:30

It kind of reminds me of emotion focused therapy or attachment therapy where it's like, what's the pattern? Because you're doing something to get probably a different need met, but it's not working out for you. So like, how can you start changing that pattern to get your actual need met, which is like connection or, having fun with your partner or not being alone as often, not feeling alone, whatever. Yeah. That's cool. That's

Hannah: 48:57

to abandonment. So I Push my friends away Because it's safer.

Joni: 49:04

That's really interesting. These are some really great things to just chew on and think about. This helps in therapy, but are there any other little things that you, I don't know, resources you suggest or things you suggest people think about to help them kind of rediscover who they are.

Hannah: 49:20

The do it yourself version?

Joni: 49:22

I guess. Yeah.

Hannah: 49:24

ha I think you can do the body focus practices at home. So this is as simple as like a body scan. The three things are, What are my sensations? What emotions are these cluing me into? What do I really want? That's the last piece, is if I'm feeling mad, because I'm not getting what I want, let yourself express the mad. That has to come first. And then going, oh, yeah, I actually wanted to read a book alone quietly today, and I didn't get to do that. So I want some alone time. I want some protected time. And then speaking it. So sensations, emotions, wants would be One of the main ones. Anybody could write down their expectations versus what they're actually experiencing and start to think about where did these expectations come from? This could be a good journaling prompt. Here's how I viewed motherhood. Here's how I viewed what life would be when my kids were grown. Here's what I thought my life would look like. Where did these come from? Which ones of these do I want to hold on to? Which ones do I want to bid adieu, say? Okay, thanks. I've been carrying this for a while. I'm just gonna let it go. One for me is my house looks like people live in it. And I'm just good, I'm just good with that now. That it looks like people live here and not clean all the time.

Joni: 51:02

You used to have an expectation that it was clean all the time,

Hannah: 51:05

yeah. It wasn't helping me. It was just making me stressed and mad.

Joni: 51:09

Yeah. That's cool. It's not cool that you're stressed and mad, but it's cool that you recognize it and change your expectations of yourself. I love that example.

Hannah: 51:16

Yeah I think the last one, and we didn't really get into talking about this, but making great agreements in your partnership, or making great agreements with people that you interact the most with in your life, where, thinking about the question, how can everybody get everything they want? How can we all get everything we want, instead of the mindset that your needs have to be put aside for everybody else's? And just approaching the conversation that way makes space for you to have a want or a need versus I'll squeak in if there's space some day.

Joni: 52:00

Yeah. Building space for your, for yourself. When you say great agreements, is that a term from something? I haven't heard that before.

Hannah: 52:07

Yeah, so it's another Julie Caldwell concept, but it starts with the same process that we just went through with the emotions. Moving your emotions and getting to a place where you're not in survival brain, reactive brain. And then once you've identified all your wants, like if you and I were doing this, be like, oh, what do I want? What do you want, Joanie? We make a whole list. Then we'd say, is there anything that is on your list that I'm not okay with you getting? Or vice versa. And if not... Then, we get to brainstorm about all the possible ways we could get what we wanted. And these could be the most outrageous ideas. It's just about outlining them like, we should get a pony! We should definitely get a pony. That would make podcast recording just like, the most fun.

Joni: 53:01

Especially if that pony could edit, that would be a magical, magical thing.

Hannah: 53:07

an editing pony, yeah. But then you get to pick oh, these things work for everybody. Let's do that. if you're not practiced in speaking those wands, then there's so many assumptions running the show in your life that you're kind of just breaking them down.

Joni: 53:28

Especially, and this kind of goes back to the concepts behind fair play, like you will become the default parent and so oftentimes as women, we can be bad at speaking our needs and then we. are less likely to get our needs met because the work load and the mental load and emotional load defaults to you. It's helpful to speak them, especially with your partner or someone who's like a great support in your life because you might not even know what they are because you're just so distracted by the to do list that you're not actually living a life that you're happy with.

Hannah: 54:04

I feel like we could talk about this forever. Like I'm looking at my list and I'm like, ugh. There's so much to this and Everything that came up. It was like oh and here's five other things and here's you know, there's so much to it

Joni: 54:18

totally. That's why, that's why people go see you for therapy because there is a lot more to it. And you can only like, Help so much through an hour long episode, but no, I agree. It's so fun to talk about. Can you just share how people can work with you if they're looking to find a therapist right now?

Hannah: 54:36

yeah for sure so my practice name is Nova therapy and doula services and if you google thrive with Nova or thrive with Nova. com is my website so you can contact me through there. The phone number on there comes straight to my phone so I'm happy for people to just text me and ask to set up a session or a consult. I'm always happy to meet for 20 minutes and see if you even like being around me. to do therapy with. And I'm licensed in a couple states. If you have listeners in Texas, Montana, Idaho, or Utah, I can see them by telehealth and in person in Logan.

Joni: 55:23

Awesome. And you have an office in Logan, right?

Hannah: 55:26

Yes, I do.

Joni: 55:27

Do you have availability right now?

Hannah: 55:29

Yep, I've got immediate openings.

Joni: 55:32

Awesome. And then if they want to work with you as a doula, same contact information. That's

Hannah: 55:38

Yes. Yeah, go to my website and just reach out. Let me know when your due date is and what you're hoping for. I also teach postpartum planning classes and those are open to anybody. So even if I'm not your doula and you want to Go into postpartum feeling super prepared. I put those on my events calendar. Or you can reach out and ask me when the next one is.

Joni: 56:01

an awesome idea. Yeah. Postpartum planning can be such a game changer. So thanks for bringing that up. And thanks for your time, Hannah, I've learned a lot and I feel like I need to start I'll see you around. Bye. Dancing with my patients more or something like

Hannah: 56:13

Yeah, wig, you're gonna be wiggling.

Joni: 56:16

I'm going to try. We'll see. It makes me nervous, but probably would make them more nervous.

Hannah: 56:21

Yeah. That's good, you should do things that are scary. Cool, yeah, thanks

Joni: 56:25

That's true. Definitely. All right. Thanks so much.

Hannah: 56:28

Joanie.

Joni: 56:46

I hope that was a helpful episode for you. I know it was for me. Because I also struggled to feel through my emotions. I was watching this training. From birth smarter maybe a month ago. Because I was about to interview them. And I was just trying to gather more information about what they offer in their trainings. And one of the things I talked about was allowing your body to make noise. And do whatever it needs to do while you're laboring. And trying to let go of that judgment you might have of yourself or worrying about what other people may think of you. As you make noise and move in unusual ways, I guess. And I feel like what hannah. And I talked about is kind of in sync with that idea that using our bodies can help us feel through these intense emotions, whether they're ones we're really excited about or ones that are more difficult to feel. So I hope you try to use some of these exercises. She suggests, I have, since we recorded this. And I was reminded of it. Once again, as I was editing it today. As far as links, I will definitely link her Instagram and her website. I don't have the form, the PDF she was talking about during the episode. About like what question to ask if you're feeling sad or mad or fearful. But if I get that from her, between now and the time this posts, I will definitely link that as well in the show notes. If not, then I might just post it on my Instagram. And then last but not least. If you have five seconds to push that five star review. That would be so helpful, or even sending this to someone who you think might benefit from it. Just so that this podcast is helping people and. We will talk next week. Well, I'll talk next week to a stranger and you'll listen. And you will like it. Just kidding. Okay, have a good week.