The Sad Moms Club

45. From Isolation to Empowerment: Domestic Violence Realities and Resources

• Joni Lybbert • Season 2 • Episode 45

Share episode

Today we speak with Josie White and Allie McGee from South Valley Services, a nonprofit specializing in domestic violence support. They talk about the prevalence of abuse, different types of abuse, warning signs, and available resources for those in abusive relationships. They emphasize the importance of creating a safety plan and seeking help from local and national hotlines. The episode also provides guidance for friends and family on how to support loved ones experiencing abuse.

Resources:

Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club

Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club

Joni:

Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the sad moms club. Before I jump into explaining about this episode, I just want to mention the climb that we have going on. It is an event that we have every year put on by postpartum support international the Utah chapter. And it is held this year at union park on June 22nd. From nine 30 to one 30. if you're interested in just connecting with more people, Who have been in the same boat as you, whether you're someone who's more overwhelmed or anxious or sad. Or you're doing fine. And you just want to bring along some mom, friends and hang out for the day. kind of think farmer's market, but all geared towards families, and, and resources for. Particularly people in the perinatal period. Try to say that three times fast. But families in general, too., There's things for kids like there's princesses. There's gonna be face painting. There's a playground there. District command going again, June 22nd at union park. From nine 30, till one 30 and they opened up a silent auction. Already, I can link that in the show notes, they have a lot of awesome items. So if you're interested in that, I'm going to be there. I'd love to meet you. And there's a lot of awesome providers and just people who care, who are there to. Okay. So today we have a very. Special and I think important discussion. I talked to Josee and Allie from south valley services, which is a nonprofit organization specializing in domestic violence support. You may be thinking that this topic doesn't relate to. But they explain really clearly that it relates to everybody. They'll say this later on in the podcast, this statistic, but one in three women, one in four men and one in two non-binary people. We'll experience some kind of abuse in their lifetime. Even if you are not experiencing. Some kind of abuse. You. No someone who is, or who has. This is a very education heavy episode. We talk about the different kinds of abuse, not just physical warning signs that you or someone you love may be in an abusive relationship. And resources you can use to get connected, to help. Since abusive relationships are inherently isolating. We also talk about how to be a support person to someone who's experiencing abuse. We talk a lot about the Utah domestic violence coalition being the first stop if you're in Utah. And I just want to say that upfront so that you don't have to listen to the whole episode to get the resource. And of course I'll link that in the show notes. And if you're not in Utah, you can go to the national website and hotline. And it's literally the hotline.org, but again, I'll link that in the show notes as well. And I should've said this earlier, but all the resources that they provide are free. And that includes individual therapy group therapy. The shelter services that they offer. So I think that sometimes the hard thing is people in this situation. RD are struggling for help. And so recognizing that this can be a free resource, is so, so, so huge. So let's get started.

Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club.

Joni:

Welcome to the podcast, Josie and Allie. I was hoping you guys could first just introduce yourselves so we can kind of get used to your different voices and know who's talking. So, Josie, could you go first?

Josie:

Yeah, so I'm Josie. I am the development director at South Valley Services. I help with outreach, marketing, fundraising, a little bit of everything.

Joni:

And can you, just real quick, explain what South Valley Services is?

Josie:

Yeah, South Valley Services is a 501c3 nonprofit that specializes in domestic violence and sexual assault. And so we have four locations. A shelter in Tooele County and a shelter in Salt Lake County. And in both of those counties, a community based, uh, resource center where people can drop in and out for services like case management and therapy without having to stay in a shelter.

Joni:

Are those, like, connected, those two, the community and the shelter? Or are they in, two different locations?

Josie:

They're at two different locations. Both of our shelters are confidentially located. We typically see clients whose lives and safety are deemed to be in imminent danger. were they to be found, so our shelter addresses aren't released to the public, but the two survivor advocacy centers, or community resource centers, those addresses are available on our website.

Joni:

Okay, that's really good to know. And can I ask Josie, how did you get into this, working with this nonprofit? Is this something like you're personally passionate about or something you kind of fell into?

Josie:

So, it is a little bit of both. I have always wanted to work with the general homeless population, and so when this opportunity opened up and there's a shelter involved, I thought, there's enough overlap here to be relevant, but And since being in this position, I've become so deeply passionate about this cause and the special needs of this population as it relates to homelessness, but also as it relates to our greater community and how much overlap there is between domestic violence and abuse and homelessness and substance use disorder and even mental health conditions. And so it's just been this really special spot in my life. everything I'm interested in all in one and so being able to help fundraise for this cause is just, I mean I couldn't ask for a better job.

Joni:

That's amazing. They're lucky to have you. That's like exactly who you want in that type of, environment. I feel like it can sometimes feel kind of hopeless. Like really heartbreaking and so it's cool that you can maintain that passion and, and really want to help these people.

Josie:

my job's really unique too because I work out of the basement of our Salt Lake County shelter and so you see these instances of abuse and sometimes it's almost unfathomable. And then you also get to see the strength and resilience of our clients, which again, in its own way is almost unfathomable. And I also have the added benefit of seeing our community at its most generous and willing and excited to help people who are in need of a helping hand. And so it's just this wonderful experience of seeing humanity at all extremes. And so again, just truly an amazing job.

Joni:

That's really cool. Well, thank you. I'm looking forward to learning more because I know very little about this population. Um, Allie, could you introduce yourself?

Allie:

Yeah, my name is Allie McGee, and I am a member of the clinical team, the clinical therapy team at SBS, where I am currently a CSWI. I'm a clinical social work intern. I'm actually still in graduate school. I'm not new to social services at all. But, I kind of reached a point in working in social services where I felt like I couldn't do. anymore until I got that license and started doing therapy. One of the sad things about being an intern is that probably by the time this podcast comes out, I will no longer be at South Valley Services. I'm gonna be moving over to Roots and Branches, which is a private practice in Lehigh and I'm very excited about that, but also sad to be leaving SBS

Joni:

I bet.

Allie:

one additional cool thing about being in graduate school is that I also get to do research. And I recently, did a big research project with a team at the university about intimate partner homicides in the United States. And I have had a really cool opportunity to use the resources of the university to share that information with people who might actually find it helpful in their lives.

Joni:

I don't know about you. I hate like the actual researching part of it, but then the knowledge I have on the other end is so powerful. And then you actually know the statistics and you can maybe feel like you can persuade people a little bit more about how important the cause is.

Allie:

Oh, absolutely.

Joni:

Did you choose South Valley services as your first location for any specific reason?

Allie:

Yes, so one of the things that I always say about why I wanted to become a therapist is I just want to work with women. There are so many things that are unique about just being a woman in this society. They're unique, they're challenging, they require special understanding, and one of those things, unfortunately, is domestic violence and sexual assault. So South Valley Services was my first choice of the internship that I wanted and I was so happy to get it and I have enjoyed it so much. I also came to it with a personal background. A few years ago an extended family member of mine was killed by their spouse and that was a really hard thing for me to Watch people in my family go through and watch that family go through. It just motivated me, I think, to want to help people who are going through really hard things, get through those really hard things.

Joni:

Yeah, that's devastating. I'm so sorry. I'm glad that you are able to turn that into something powerful. About your time in South Valley Services, what type of, like, are you doing therapy? Are you running groups? What has your role been in the last year?

Allie:

Yeah, so I do both individual therapy that can be with clients who are currently in shelter or it can be with community clients. we offer therapy services to anyone who is a primary or secondary, survivor of domestic violence. And then we also have groups. So I'm currently right in the middle of one of our groups that we run. It's called Creating Hope. It's an eight week therapy group for, survivors of domestic violence, intimate partner violence, and sexual assault. And I just absolutely love, of course, individual therapy, but groups I think are really powerful, especially in the domestic violence population, because often people feel so alone and they feel so isolated. They feel like they're the only person who is going through this or has gone through this. And They find really quickly when they come to group that they are not alone, and they're with people who really understand what they're going through. And that is a really powerful thing.

Joni:

Especially something so wrapped in shame, like I'm allowing this quote, allowing this to happen to me, obviously that's, there's so much more to it than that, um, and then meeting other people who've also been in that same situation. And, I imagine those would be some really powerful groups. So if someone's listening right now and they're like, this is really heavy. This is not my life. Like I don't experience intimate partner violence. I mean, probably a lot of people are listening, actually have been sexually assaulted since it's like, isn't it one in three or one in four and women, which one is it?

Allie:

You know what, I think it really depends on the statistics. I have one that I use for homicides. I don't have one off the top of my head that I use for sexual assault, I'm sorry.

Joni:

no, it's okay. I've heard different statistics, but regardless, like they may have experienced that, I guess my question is why should people care about domestic violence within the postpartum peripartum period? I

Allie:

yeah, that is such a great question, and I'm glad that you prefaced it by saying, hey, this is really heavy and this is a hard thing to talk about. the reason why Women in the peripartum period, and I think all of us should be concerned about domestic violence, is that as of 2022, women in the U. S. who are pregnant or have recently, given birth are more likely to die from homicides than they are from associated medical issues with giving birth. These homicides are linked. To a mix of intimate partner violence and firearms, usually, so homicide deaths among pregnant women, they are more prevalent than deaths from hypertensive disorders, hemorrhage, sepsis. And if you are currently pregnant, or if you recently gave birth, you're probably doing a lot of things to care for your own health and for the health of your baby. because domestic violence homicides have such an impact on this population, caring about it is one of the most important things you can do to care for your own health and the health of your baby. The other really important point is that these homicides are preventable. Often when we see stories on the news when someone is killed by their spouse or their partner, you will see people call it a senseless act of violence. And I really, really dislike that term. It makes it sound like this event was some kind of uncontrollable, unpredicted thing that happened, like a weather event or an earthquake. And that is absolutely not the case. There is nothing senseless about these types of homicides. We can absolutely make sense of them. We understand often why they happen and what puts somebody at a higher risk. So when we are able to make sense of them, we can prevent them. And the final thing I'll say, to that question is that yes, you might not be in a relationship that is abusive, but you absolutely know someone who either is or has been. It's something that is often so wrapped up in shame and guilt, people feel like they can't talk about it, and so you might not know, but I promise you, Yeah,

Joni:

Do you know how common is it for someone, I guess, like how frequent are women in domestic violence relationships? I don't know the right way to word that.

Allie:

One statistic, I mean, there's a couple of statistics that I often use, but, one that stands out to me is that about three women are killed every day in the United States by an intimate partner. I think I mentioned that. this before, but more than 50 percent of homicides of women in the United States are from an intimate partner. And man, now, I'm sorry. Now I'm going to forget the overall statistic.

Joni:

Do you know it, Josie, by chance?

Josie:

So nationally, it's one in four women and one in seven men are going to experience domestic violence within their lifetime. But in Utah, it actually occurs at rates higher than the national average, with one in three women, one in four men, and one in two non binary persons experiencing domestic violence within their lifetimes. So like and subscribe. Allie was saying, whether or not we know it, we all know somebody who's either experiencing this or has experienced it. And it is a heavy, sometimes uncomfortable topic. But what we also know is that violence thrives in silence. And as long as we're not talking about it, it's going to continue being an issue. And As long as there is violence in our community, we're all susceptible to it in one way or another. And so these discussions are so important because without them, nobody's going to be talking and this issue is just going to continue.

Joni:

Yeah, the statistics are pretty, shocking. One in three women, one in four men, one in two non binary. That seems like, so I know a lot of people who are in violent relationships. Can I ask? And this is my own lack of knowledge. When you use the term domestic violence, is that just intimate partner violence or is that violence towards children? What does that include? Like, violence within the family at all? What does that mean?

Josie:

So the statistics I just shared, this includes people who've experienced domestic violence as children. And so it encompasses the entire lifespan. So child abuse, elder abuse, adult abuse. Abuse?

Joni:

Regular old adult abuse. Just kidding.

Josie:

That was maybe not the best way to say it, but The 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 statistics include abuse throughout the entire lifespan.

Joni:

Wow. Okay. and what does domestic violence really look like? How would you define abuse? What are the different types of abuse? just so we can kind of better understand that terminology.

Josie:

domestic abuse Abuse is anything that can be used to maintain or gain power and control over another person. And so that can take a lot of forms, but if it can be utilized as a tool to maintain or gain power and control over another person, there is a possibility that it could be used as a tool for abuse.

Allie:

Yeah, so there are lots of different types of abuse. usually when people think of domestic abuse, domestic violence, intimate partner violence, they're thinking about physical violence, right? And that's definitely part of that. Physical violence can look like hitting, punching, kicking, shoving, choking or biting, things like that. But it's very limiting and it's also not accurate to think of abuse as just being physical. Sexual abuse often plays into it. That can look like forcing or pressuring someone to engage in sexual acts without their consent, withholding sex as a way to punish a partner, or acts of reproductive coercion. We also see a lot of emotional abuse. And this can be a really tough one because sometimes it's hard for us to figure out, well, what's abuse and what's just not a great relationship or a relationship that's going through a tough time. But there definitely is a line where Things become emotional abuse and a lot of the time that's going to look like humiliating or embarrassing someone when other people are around Telling them they're never going to be good at something. They're never going to do anything, right? That can look like name calling, insults, lowering the person's self esteem, threats, verbal threats. are a big one. Minimizing, denying, or blaming the abusive experience on the victim. So, for example, well, I did this abusive act, but it was your fault because you provoked me, or you didn't do what I wanted. Something that I hear from Most of my clients, I would say, is that their abusive partner made them feel like they were going crazy. They worked to make them feel like their thoughts and feelings were not accurate, that they didn't remember things correctly. And then one other really big part of emotional abuse is often isolation from family and friends. Josie already touched on this, but we know that abuse thrives in isolation. And sometimes an abusive partner will work to isolate their partner from the people in their lives that they're the closest to. There are also additional types of abuse that people don't often think of. Financial abuse. So like not allowing someone to have a job or have access to their personal income. Maxing out credit cards and leaving the person in debt. That happens a lot more than you might think. Depositing all incomes into one account that only the abusive person can access. There's spiritual abuse in which the abusive partner ridicules or insults the other person's religious or spiritual beliefs. They might prevent the other partner from practicing those beliefs or they would use their partner's religious beliefs. beliefs or spiritual beliefs to manipulate or shame them. And the final one is really two in one, but in recent years they've become so interconnected, and that is stalking. and technological abuse. We've really seen an increase in stalking behaviors, in abusive relationships, as technology has developed to make it easier and easier. That can look like just misusing technology, whether it's cell phones, computers, social media, GPS, smart devices. As any way to maintain power and control over a person or to stalk them. That could be unnecessary or unwanted contact on someone's cell phone or social media. The abusive partner might appear in various locations where the victim might frequent like their home, their school, their workplace. They might do that. Because they know that person's often there, or more and more, we're seeing that because they have some way of tracking them technologically, so they know for sure where they are. There are stalking behaviors that don't take any technology at all. Sometimes we'll see people monitoring someone else's whereabouts through a third party or over social media. That is all to say that, when we talk about Intimate partner violence. We often just think about that physical violence, but it's much more complicated than that.

Joni:

Did you have anything to add to that, Josie, before I ask some questions?

Josie:

I would add that There's this notion that if it's not physical, it's quote unquote not that bad, but we know that is just simply not true. In Utah, 40 percent of the homicides, the first instance of physical violence was the homicide. And so we know that emotional abuse, financial abuse, spiritual abuse, it's still unsafe. There doesn't have to be physical violence for the relationship to be dangerous.

Joni:

Wow. that is a good reminder. That was kind of one of the questions I had was, As I was hearing some of these, I'm wondering, are there warning signs that you might be in an abusive relationship? And, like, would the emotional abuse be a warning sign that it's going to become physical?

Allie:

Yeah, so Josie, I'm so glad that you commented on how there's not always physical abuse that leads up to a homicide. Sometimes there are other types of abuse. I shared a little bit at the top of the podcast today about my extended family member who was killed by their spouse. And while no one knows for sure what goes on behind closed doors in people's lives, no one was aware of any type of physical abuse that had preceded that event. There were other warning signs, but those physical abuse warning signs were not there. Recognizing abuse can be kind of tough. Each person's Experience in an abusive relationship is different, and sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference between a relationship that is challenging or unhealthy and one where one person is abusing another. Abuse that doesn't leave those physical marks or injuries. is harder to recognize. It's harder to recognize for the person who is being abused, and it's harder to recognize for other people as well. It's also hard to recognize in other people because if someone has experienced domestic violence, they may not tell anyone for a variety of reasons. They might worry about getting other people involved and they might be really ashamed of what happened. There are things that you can look out for if there's someone in your life that you are concerned about. And these things could indicate that this person is experiencing domestic violence. some big warning signs are if they seem afraid of their partner or very anxious to please them. If they have stopped seeing friends and family. Or, for example, if they cut phone conversations very short, or, they're in a phone conversation, but it's always really clear that the partner is there 100 percent of the time. They might state that their partner pressures them or forces them to engage in sexual activity that they don't want to. Their partner might order them around or make all the decisions. They might mention or talk about their partner's jealousy, bad temper, or possessiveness. Maybe you've seen a change in Just their affect. They seem more anxious, more depressed, they've lost confidence, or they seem unusually quiet or withdrawn. It's kind of an easy one, right, when you can see the physical injuries like bruises, broken bones, sprains, and cuts, and the person might give unlikely reasons for why they have those injuries or they might have a story about them that doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense or is just a little suspicious in, in some ways. If there are children in the home, the children might seem afraid of the partner. They might have behavioral issues, sleep dysregulation, they might seem withdrawn or anxious. quite often we'll see the partner who's being abused really reluctant to leave those children with the partner. That can be a warning sign as well. If you are out with a friend and they receive an excessive amount of phone calls or texts from their partner asking them what they're doing, who they're with, when they're going to be home, that is also a warning sign that ties in with that stalking and technological piece that I talked about earlier. Their partner might make all the rules. that the other partner has to follow, which can include like who they see, what they wear, what they spend money on, how the house is supposed to be kept. And finally, the person that you're concerned about, they might ask you to keep things secret from their partner, for example, like who they've seen, plans they have made, things they've done. purchased because they might be scared, about what will happen if their partner finds out. And like I said, it's hard sometimes because maybe you will see one or two of these things in someone's relationship in your life and maybe they're not in an abusive relationship, maybe it's just an unhealthy relationship. But one thing that I often talk about with clients when determining what's an abusive relationship versus unhealthy is we just need to think about the whole picture. Think about all those different types of abuse that are possible. Usually when we think about that big picture, we step back, people can say, Oh yeah, I mean, maybe there's no physical abuse going on in my life or in my friend's life, but there's definitely emotional, financial, spiritual abuse going on. And I see these multiple. warning signs that there's something going on here.

Joni:

That's really helpful. Thank you for that extensive list and that's really good to hear.

Allie:

it's hard because there's such a list, so I know for some of these things, the list might be like a little long, so

Joni:

no. I don't mind. No, no. I think it's helpful. I, well, that wasn't a commentary.

Allie:

I even cut some out where I was like, hey, I just got to do the most important ones, but they're so varied because there's so many types of abuse that it's so hard.

Joni:

right, no, I think it's good. It's helpful to have an idea of how that might present. Cause some of those, you're right. Some of those might just be like, Oh, they just have like a different relationship than me and my partner. They like check in a lot more or, but just to have your, um, I guess be a little bit more primed to, to recognize it. One thought I had. And then we'll kind of move on to, more questions. But I feel like it'd be really easy to, compare and be like, Well, he's not hitting me. Well, he's not forcing me to have sex with him. I'm saying he because, we're talking about this in the context of women, but I understand it can happen to anybody. Do you guys have any psychoeducation points or things you say to people to be like, no, that's bad. That's bad enough, to help them kind of realize like this is an abusive relationship.

Josie:

I guess what I would say is if something feels wrong in your gut, that intuition's usually right and you should listen to it one of the things I'd tell someone. If your gut's telling you something is wrong, that's a good intuition to follow.

Joni:

Okay. Yeah, I think that's good advice.

Allie:

Yeah, I love that. And I think kind of along those same lines, quite often we do hear, like, oh, well, my partner is not hitting me. They're not being physically violent with me. But one thing that I really know from working with clients who have been through these types of experiences, and something that we know from the academic research as well, is that sometimes these other types of abuse have a more long term impact than that physical abuse. So, just because If something's not physical, if it's emotional abuse, if it's sexual abuse, if it's any other type of abuse, that doesn't mean that it's not as bad. It can absolutely have a really huge impact, and it can have a really long lasting impact.

Joni:

and I'm sure someone even who's getting hit could be like saying, well, he's not strangling me. He's not like, there's always something worse. He hasn't pulled a gun. He hasn't, you know, like, I, I just imagine we can always compare, And so it's easy to get in that mindset to be like, I can, I can take this. This is okay. I mean, I can manage what is happening right now. And then to your guys's point, you never know when that's going to become something deadly. And then involving kids in the home too. There's like that aspect of it as well. So, this is helpful. If someone's listening and thinking like these types of abuse sound like my relationship, like, what do I do? Where can I go for help? What would you. What would you guys recommend?

Josie:

If you're worried about your relationship, I would recommend just reaching out for help. And there are so many resources throughout Utah and throughout the U. S. There's a national hotline you can call, a local hotline, and All of them are staffed with victim advocates who can help connect you to resources, answer questions, and even if you're unsure what to do for next steps, doing that initial phone call and just asking and seeing what resources are available in your community is a really smart first step.

Joni:

What's the Utah number and what's the national hotline number? And I can put it in the show notes as well.

Yeah, so if you Google domestic violence link line, you'll be able to see the national phone number as well as the local phone number that is run by the Utah Domestic Violence Coalition and a quick phone call and then you're connected to someone who will be able to help. And what type of resources will they give you? So they can connect you to local resources, so a shelter that's nearby if shelter is necessary. If not, they can connect you to resources like What South Valley Services has, where our community based resources, so you don't necessarily need to stay in shelter to access road services. Okay, so I know South Valley Services is one, are there other, so we kind of know the names, other agencies we should be aware of in other counties? Yeah, so there's also the YWCA in Salt Lake County. There's the Refuge that I believe serves Utah County, the Dove Center down in St. George, and I think the best starting place for somebody in Utah would be to go to the Utah Domestic Violence Coalition website and start by calling their link line and then they can help connect you to the domestic violence service provider that is closest to you. Okay. That seems like a good way to go. And then what types of services, so it sounds like sheltering may be one option if someone doesn't feel safe in their home, they need to get out. But what other types of services are available? Excellent question. And so, the type of service that's available depends on where you're located, but a lot of shelters have things like case management, victim advocacy, and then also therapy. And generally speaking, these services are free to survivors, so you don't need to use insurance, which can be a little bit tricky, especially if you're on your perpetrator's insurance plan, which we know is pretty frequent. Oh yeah. And so, there are still options. At South Valley Services, all of our services are provided to survivors at no cost to them. What is domestic advocacy? Is that like, help with lawyers? Or what does that mean? Yeah, some of our organizations do provide. Legal assistance and legal counseling. South Valley Services does not, but we have a lot of community partners we can refer people to. Good to know. Awesome. Okay, so let's say someone's listening and thinking, like, these types of abuse sound like my relationship, but I'm hoping that this baby will bring us closer together. How likely is that to happen? So if you are in a relationship right now where there is abuse. and you have this hope, I would tell you, first of all, that you are not the first person to have that hope. It is very common, and I totally understand, number one, why you would hope that that would be the case, and number two, why it kind of feels like it makes sense. It feels like having a baby should bring you and your partner closer together. You might hope that their perspective is going to change, their behavior is going to change, and that change will be positive and moving away from abusive behavior. Unfortunately, the answer that we have very clearly from research and also just from one on one work with clients at SVS, is that that is not very likely to be the case. It is not likely that abuse in your relationship is going to stop or decrease when you and your partner have a baby. It's more likely that it's going to increase. And it helps to understand why abuse happens quite often in intimate partner relationships. It's And that kind of helps us understand why. So one thing that we know from decades of research about domestic violence and intimate partner violence is that it's often about power and control. Quite often it seems like it's about anger, right? The abusive partner tends to take their anger out on their intimate partner, but it's not really about the anger. It's all about trying to instill fear to have power and control in the relationship. So what we really see is anger is used as a tool that the abusive partner can use for manipulation and to maintain control. One way that we have of understanding what abuse in relationships looks like. And why it happens is something called the power and control wheel. And obviously we're doing a podcast, so I can't show it to you, but just imagine a circle and all around the outside of the circle holding everything together is physical and sexual violence. And then, like spokes of a wagon wheel, we have these different types of Of abuse that we talked about earlier, physical abuse, financial abuse, spiritual abuse, technological abuse. But what's really at the center, what holds everything together and what all of those behaviors are based on, is the abusive partner feeling entitled to and working to preserve all of the power and control. in the relationship. And so when a baby is born, baby has all the power and control in the family's life, right? They're not trying to have all the power and control, but they are a newborn baby. And so they are going to put a lot of demands, especially on their mother, but on both of their parents. They are going to run the schedule of the household, right, depending on how they're sleeping or when they need to eat, etc. So, we see the power and control in the family shifting to the baby, and that is really often upsetting for the abusive partner. So, That's why quite often we see when couples have a baby and there's been abuse in the relationship, abuse actually escalates instead of de escalating. That's really interesting. I've never heard of that before. Thank you for teaching us that. Even though it's, it's sad, it's not what you would hope, but helpful to understand the reason. I imagine not sleeping much. Doesn't help either. I don't know, maybe this is totally wrong, but if you feel like, oh, if I just do the right things and I don't upset my partner, then, then it'll all be okay. But it's probably even harder to do that when you're not feeling good, you're recovering, you have a baby who has different needs. I feel like it's like a powder keg about to explode. It seems like it would only get worse. Worse with all of those extra stressors going on. Oh, absolutely. I think you're totally spot on with that. An example from my own life, I have two children, and, um, I have a great relationship, a healthy relationship, uh, with my partner. And I think back to those months when our kids were newborns, And there was a lot of tension between the two of us, and we were both going through a lot of frustrating things. We were both really low on sleep, felt difficult to even think straight sometimes, and that's just the quote unquote common experience, right? If you put perinatal depression and anxiety, Or if, you know, the non breathing partner is going through depression and anxiety, if there are financial struggles going on, all of these compounding factors can just really add up and escalate that situation. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. If someone is listening, this is kind of shifting gears, if someone's listening and feels like their loved one, a friend, family member is in an abusive relationship. What could they do to help or support them? Like we talked about earlier, you probably do, you, you absolutely do know someone who is either in an abusive relationship or has been in the past. And that can feel really troubling and overwhelming as a friend or a family member, especially because you can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. You, You often just don't have the power that maybe you wish you had to change things. And it can be really hard to figure out, well, what can I do that actually is helpful? And one resource that I always point people to is on the Utah Domestic Violence Coalition's website. They have a great website that has something called the Friends and Family Guide. On that Friends and Family Guide, they have three tips for if you are in this situation where you have a friend or a sister or a loved one of any kind who you are worried is in a, in an abusive relationship. Tip number one is ask a question. Approach your friend or your relative in a sensitive way, letting them know that you're just concerned about them. But don't be surprised if, at first, they are defensive or dismissive or rejecting of your support. That's a pretty normal reaction for them to have. They might not be ready to admit that they're in an abusive relationship, or they might feel really ashamed or afraid of talking about it. Just asking someone, How is it going? And really caring about the answer is super powerful. Some other questions you can ask are like, What do you need or want? How can I help? What is life like with your partner? That's a really disarming question. There's no accusatory element to it. And it's not often a question I think that we ask each other. Um, you could also ask them, like, how are the kids doing? If there are kids in the home, it's usually a lot easier for people to talk about their kids, or maybe the struggles their kids are having, than it is to talk about themselves. And you can also ask them, is your relationship energizing or draining? That's a better question than saying, are you in an abusive relationship? Because number one, they might not know if they're in an abusive relationship. And number two, that's a question that can make them feel very defensive. And like they just need to put up a wall and kind of keep you at bay. That's The second tip is listen up. So really listen. Listen without having your own agenda. Listen without judgment. So when people are heard, it helps them feel seen and understood, and especially if they're in a relationship where their experiences are not being acknowledged or if someone is telling them. No, that's not what happened, or, you know, this was your fault, you're crazy, things like that. It can be so powerful to just have that experience be acknowledged by another person. Some things you can say to people who have experienced harm are, number one, I believe you. You can tell them, you know, I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. You can thank them for sharing this information with you because that's a very vulnerable and often scary thing to do. You can tell them, I don't even know what to say right now, but I'm so glad you told me. That's probably true, right? You probably don't know what to say right now. You can also tell them, you don't deserve this. It's not your fault. You're not alone. And you get to choose what you do next. When you're listening deeply to someone, you're not trying to assert your opinion. You're trying to just listen and understand their perspective. But you can also listen for what the person might think about the risks or priorities or concerns in their relationship. There are some red flags. That really indicate potential for greater risk in intimate partner violence and domestic violence relationships. And the four big ones that we really focus on are if the abusive partner has access to firearms, if they have threatened suicide, if the abusive partner has ever strangled their partner, and if the abusive partner has threatened to kill their partner, So, those are kind of those biggest things that you can say if someone tells you that one of those four things has happened, you're empowered with the information to say, hey, that is a huge, huge red flag, and I need you to know what a big red flag that is. The last tip is to stay connected. Often, in these types of relationships, And these types of experiences, it takes a long time for things to get better. It's a very commonly cited statistic that usually it takes seven times of someone leaving their abusive partner for that leaving to be permanent. That's kind of the average that we have had from research. Our most recent research would say it's even higher than seven times. So, it, it's going to take, as a friend, just patience and support. It also means you're not in a position to give ultimatums. Tough love is not what people respond well to. You might be the only person that is reaching out to them, so instead of giving them an ultimatum they just really can't live up to, and then, you know, they don't have anyone left. It's better to just leave the door open and make it easy for them to keep coming back to you. Even if the person you are reaching out to doesn't reach back out, you can always be the one to take the first step in reaching out. And this can be a literal lifeline for people. Sometimes maybe they're not calling you back or reaching back out to you because they can't. You don't really know. All that being said, you know, regarding this third tip, it's really hard to stay connected when you're worried and scared and unsure about how to help someone you care about. And it's not helpful to sacrifice your own well being in the hopes of helping someone else. So, if you need support as a support person, if you need help, if you need advice, You can also reach out to the link line. The link line is not just for people who are primary victims of domestic violence or sexual assault. You can reach out for help and advice as well. And also, if you need to take a break, take it. It can be exhausting, and it's not worth it to sacrifice your own well being in the hopes of helping someone else. Yeah. It's really good advice. I think a couple things you said, I mean, all of it, but at least that hit home for me. I don't know who's experiencing violence in my life, but I do have people who struggle with some serious mental illness, and it can be exhausting to be the one that cares more than they do. It's, it feels like the reminder of, like, tough love's not helpful, and ultimatums aren't helpful, and just, like, taking breaks if you need it. But Not, not withdrawing your hand for help, doing what you can, but also taking care of yourself. All very, very helpful. I think in probably a lot of situations. It's such a difficult thing to navigate and it, it does have a lot of similarities to if you have a friend or family member who has mental health struggles or substance use struggles. There are a lot of feelings and experiences that are in common, uh, with, with those populations. So yeah, like you said, it's exhausting, but also, you know, you have to give yourself a break. You, you can't do all things for all people. And at the end of the day, it's the other person's life and it's their choices and you don't have to like their choices. They're, they're gonna make them. Yeah, yeah, that's all really helpful. So, Josie, what are the two most important things that we as friends can do to help someone we love who's in an abusive relationship? Yeah, so, there are a lot of things we can do, but two of the tips I like to give, and one of them seems a little counterintuitive, is, is, is to first never critique the person's partner. And, I'm sure a lot of people's gut instinct is like, Oh my gosh, but my cousin's boyfriend is so awful. He's the worst. We want her to leave him. But, like Allie said, it takes an average of seven times before somebody leaves. And there's already so much shame associated with domestic violence. And so, if somebody's already feeling a little bit guilty for going back and like, Oh my gosh, I should have known better, somebody already told me this. It just adds another layer of shame and another barrier to not reach out for help the next time they try to leave. So instead, you should critique the person's actions. So, for example, like, wow, when your boyfriend does X thing, that seems pretty bad, I think you deserve better. So it's a critique of their actions and not the person, right? It's important to remember that oftentimes, the person is still in love with their perpetrator, right? That's why they're staying and not leaving and it's complicated and it's messy. And so critiquing somebody's actions and not the person is really important. That's really good advice. Something I've actually come up against before. I mean, I think even if someone you love is in a relationship you don't like and they're not abusive, When you say crappy things about them, then they're like, Okay, well, then I can't open up to you in the future. When anything goes wrong, I have to pretend like everything's great. And so that's a really good, like, I feel like most people could relate to that advice, even if they're not thinking about it in the context of a violent relationship or an abusive relationship. Yeah, and even if they break up, it's so tricky not to do. But, for example, I had a friend, and she and her partner broke up, and I called him bland. And I'm like, You deserve so much better. He's really bland. And then they got back together, and now it's super awkward every time I see them somewhere, like at mutual friend parties, and so that's just a really innocent example. It gets even more complicated when there's abuse. Yes, critique the person's action, not the person. Okay, that's good. What's the second one? You can save the link line or domestic violence hotline to somebody's phone under your name as a work phone number. Okay. So if they call it and their phone is being surveyed, it looks like they're just calling a friend at work and not a domestic violence hotline. We know that leaving is one of the most dangerous times for a survivor, and so any sort of indication that that might be coming could put that person in danger. So if you save the link line as your work phone and they call that phone number for help, it'll look good if they're just calling you at work and hopefully, That's not a red flag to any type of behavior that might catch a perpetrator's eye. Oh, that's sneaky. I like it. Good sneaky. Yeah, good sneaky. Okay, thank you. Those are really great. So what if someone is like ready to leave an abusive relationship or change that relationship status with their partner, how can they stay safe since, as you just said, Josie, that is, like, the most, most dangerous or one of the most dangerous times in the relationship? As Josie said, it is, we know, one of the most dangerous times, and, and part of the reason is because it's the biggest threat, it's the biggest change to the power and control that the abusive partner has. So, if you are ready to change your relationship status, if you are ready to leave and live separately from your partner, if you are ready to go to a shelter, like if you're in a situation where Not only do you need to leave, but you are really worried that something really bad is going to happen if your partner is able to locate you or your children. Number one, that is such a scary thing, and it absolutely makes sense for you to be scared. It's a scary thing to go through, but you're not alone in doing that. There are a lot of really good resources for helping. People make these relationship changes, and the biggest thing is just putting together a safety plan, and a safety plan is exactly what it sounds like. It's a personalized, practical plan. Those are two very important words, personalized and practical, um, to stay safe. A plan needs to be specifically tailored to your circumstances, your situation. Um, and it's going to help you respond in the way that you want when things are really high stress, when something is really scary, when there is a crisis going on. When the crisis is happening, that is not the time to try to figure out what you're going to do or come up with a plan because you are in fight or flight mode, you're, you It's really important that you try to do that before. Of course, coming up with a safety plan, like, what is that? That's really overwhelming. It's another thing where the Utah Domestic Violence Coalition's website, udvc. org, um, has some really, really good resources. Um, I can't even go through, honestly, everything. They have because it would take up like so much time, but a couple things they have that really stand out as things that are especially helpful is like a safety plan checklist. There's going to be things on there that maybe you haven't thought of. For example, I mean, do you know where your vital documents are, like your birth certificate? your social security card, if there's any important immigration paperwork that you have. Do you know how to access bank accounts that you might need access to? Things like that. There might be some things on there that you, you didn't think of. On UDVC's website, there's also some really good advice about what to tell your children about safety planning. When children come into the shelter at SVS, they do a safety plan. They also need to know how to stay safe, and it's really important for all of us, of course the person who is in the abusive relationship, but also their support people, like all of us who work at SVS, it's really important that we put together a safety plan for the kids. And one that really works for them, that is practical, that is age appropriate. So that can feel really overwhelming, right? Like, oh my gosh, what do I even say to my kids? What, what you probably often want to say is nothing, because you want to shield them from things or protect them from things. But Often a safety plan is necessary and an age appropriate conversation is necessary. There's like an actual form to put together the safety plan. Okay, well, what if violence is happening? What do I do? What if I'm getting ready to leave? What do I do? And then, finally, what if I need a safety plan? And I'm also going to get a protective order. We haven't really had the chance so far to touch on protective orders, but that is absolutely a resource that is available to you, um, if your partner is abusive. Frankly, they're often the most easy to get. If there's physical violence going on, but plenty of people get them when there's no physical violence going on by calling the link line or by visiting udvc. org, you can get help to put together a safety plan, and you can even get help with getting a protective order if that is something that you feel that you need, because, like I said, this is a Sounds really overwhelming, right? It's overwhelming for any of us to move or to change our relationship status, even if there is no violence or abuse going on. So it's normal to feel overwhelmed, and you absolutely do not have to do it on your own. There is help available to you, and just take things one step at a time. That's how we put together safety plans, is, is one step at a time, and that's how people exit their relationships. It's just one step at a time. Thank you. Yeah, I think it does feel overwhelming. Learning all these just new words feels overwhelming. Like, getting a protective order, safety planning, talking to my kids about it, moving. I feel anxious just listening to it. And so, yeah, I think it's so, so important to know that. You're not, you feel alone because of your abuser, but you are not actually alone. And there's so, so much support. Even if you don't have like a good family member that you're close to, or a friend that you can reach out to, there's these awesome resources. I feel like as we're kind of wrapping this up, this can feel like a very hopeless topic. And so if someone's feeling kind of hopeless and feels that loneliness within their relationship, can you guys offer any like words of, I don't know, encouragement or is there actually hope? Do people get out of these relationships? The short answer is yes, there absolutely is hope. I do not lie to my clients. I do not tell them. That it's going to be easy. I will sit with you and validate all day what a hard, hard thing this is and how it is something that can feel so lonely and something where it is hard to have hope. But you are the expert on your own life and you get to choose what you do next. Even if you've been in a situation where someone was controlling your choices or trying to make it seem like you didn't have choices, I want to remind you that the choices are all yours. You get to make the decisions for your own life. And I can also tell you that firsthand, I have seen many people in abusive relationships go on to live full, happy lives. And, without exception, they didn't do that alone. They found help and support, even if it was just little bits of help and support here and there. You know, we talked about this kind of at the top of the show, and so I'll kind of close with it. One of my kind of personal sayings about abusive relationships. is that abuse thrives in isolation, but healing happens through loving, respectful connections with other people. There are people out there, even if you feel like you don't have anyone in your personal life, who can be that loving, respectful connection. If you call the link line, I know the people who answer those phones. And I know how passionate and loving and non judgmental and respectful they are, and they are there for you, and they're just almost like the gatekeepers to all of these other people who are there for you, too. Whether they are therapists like me or, you know, shelter staff or case managers, I can't even name all the people that are there to help you, but they absolutely are. There is so much hope. There's so much hope for you and for your future. Thanks, Sally. What about you, Josie? I would say, to echo what Ali said, there are dozens if not hundreds of people who are here to help. It starts with a phone call, and that in and of itself is an incredibly courageous action to take. But at South Valley Services, our goal is to help survivors realize their own strength, courage, and resilience while on their path to an empowered future. We see miracles every day, but it's not because of our staff. It's the camp of our strength. Resilient. That's already in the heart of survivors and in the heart of people who might need services. So we are here to help people unleash that strength and start a new beginning. Thank you. Yeah. I can tell you guys are so passionate about this and it's really moved me, everything you guys have shared. Thank you so much for spending time just teaching us and, and sharing about the services we have. So it sounds like the first place to call is that coalition number, Utah, Utah Coalition for Domestic Violence, U C D V, that's the first place to go is that phone number, or could they call you guys? Can they just show up on your doorstep? I guess any way is, is good, but how do you guys usually connect with these survivors? I'd recommend calling our hotline. We do have drop in appointments for our community resource centers. Okay. But calling our hotline is probably the best way to get a hold of us, definitely for shelter. But getting an appointment set up, having some questions answered, and kind of a warm handoff, I think can be a more approachable way than just walking in. And if somebody feels brave enough to do that at our community resource center, then by all means, we would love to see them. Awesome. Okay. Well, thank you guys for your time. This has been so great. Why, thank you so much. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Joni Lybbert

Host