The Sad Moms Club

48. Setting Boundaries for the Postpartum Period with Jennie Houtz, LCSW

• Joni Lybbert • Season 2 • Episode 48

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Hey y'all! In this episode of the Sad Moms Club I talk to Jennie Houtz, an LCSW specializing in perinatal mental health, sex therapy, trauma, and anxiety. We discuss setting all kinds of postpartum boundaries that can be helpful to set prior to birth. Jennie shares practical tips and a detailed worksheet to help new moms navigate these conversations. They also discuss the significance of self-care and maintaining one's identity after becoming a mother. Listen for helpful advice on how to set empowering boundaries and emotionally support both birthing and non-birthing partners.

00:00: Introduction to Jennie Houtz

00:43 Postpartum Boundaries: A Crucial Conversation

04:00 Navigating Childcare and Career as a Working Mom

05:51 The Mental Load and Resentment in Parenting

13:35 Setting Boundaries: Tips and Strategies

36:28 Health Considerations for Visitors

37:31 Setting Boundaries for Help and Support

39:16 Child and Pet Care Planning

40:25 Personal Space and Privacy

42:20 Handling Parenting Advice

46:12 Social Media Boundaries

49:51 Communication and Sensitive Topics

01:23 Emotional Support and Partner Relationship

01:00:57 Work, Career, and Self-Care

01:08:11 Conclusion and Resources

Resources

Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club

Joni:

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the sad moms club. I'm Joni Liberte, your host, and a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner here in Utah. And the whole point of this podcast is just to help you get connected to resources in the area. And if you're not in Utah, just to learn from different providers and then hopefully find people in your area who can give you the same kind of help. Today we have Jennie Houts. She is an LCSW and she works in the perinatal space. She also works as a sex therapist and with. Trauma and anxiety. I referenced a sex therapy episode that I just did that one is going to come out in the next few months. So timing wise, it just didn't quite line up, If you're a little confused about that. Makes sense because that hasn't come out yet. Today, we're talking about postpartum boundaries and I really recommend going to the show notes and clicking the link to get to the postpartum boundaries worksheet. She created. Or I just posted it on Instagram. So, if you're listening to this soon after it's posted, you can click there and look through what I'm referring to. Jenny goes for various areas where it might be helpful to set boundaries and have these discussions with your support system prior to baby's arrival. But if you're already postpartum, it could still be a helpful tool to have these kinds of conversations. Some things we talk about or like visitation help and support personal space. Emotional support, parenting choices, social media communication. So there's even more than that. I so, so recommend this episode. I learned so much, and it was very helpful for me as someone who's preparing to be. A parent very soon. If you want to work with Jennie, I'm going to link her website for you to contact her. And I also reference a paternal mental health conference. And so if you're a provider in this area, or if it's just something you're interested in. That's going to be held in salt lake city on September 12th and 13th. No, I'm second guessing myself. I don't want to give you the wrong dates. Thursday and Friday, September 12th and 13th. So I'll link that as well. If you have been listening. Or if it's your first time listening, it helps so much. If you can leave a review, if you can subscribe, I know everybody asks you to do that, but I know that this is not the funnest podcast. And I recognize that. We talk about some heavy things. And so I really want it to be able to find people when they're going through those heavy. Experiences. And reviews help that happen. So, well, let's talk to Jennie.

Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club.

Joni:

Okay. So let's have you just first introduce yourself. Your name. Where you're from, how you got into therapy, how long you've been working, what kind of therapy you do, just whatever you want to share and I'll ask questions as we go along.

Jennie:

okay, cool. So my name is Jennie Houtz. I'm an LCSW, which is just a fancy way of saying that I'm a licensed therapist. I've been working in therapy for right around three, four years. I love it. It's so fun connecting with people and just getting to have that experience of hearing someone's story, giving them space to experience their story. very authentically. That's kind of what I do. I opened my own practice, we're almost at a year now. I opened it last September. So I run a teletherapy practice, and I specialize in sex therapy, perinatal mental health, which is kind of what we're going to talk a little bit about today, and trauma and anxiety work.

Joni:

I didn't know you only did virtual. That's great.

Jennie:

Yeah,

Joni:

So you work from home.

Jennie:

Yeah, I find that it's it helps with accessibility for a lot of people. Cause then they're not like scrambling to try and find a sitter for their kids. And, you know, they can jump on during nap time or different things like that. So, for some people it works really great.

Joni:

Does it work better for your life as well? You have a kid or a couple kids?

Jennie:

Yeah, yeah, so I have one right now. he's 18 months old. He's crazy, which is chaotic at our house a lot. But, it, it works out nicely for my family and just kind of the stage of life that we're in. So, yeah.

Joni:

Can I ask, this is just a personal question, I can pull it out, but how do you manage child care? What do you guys do?

Jennie:

Yeah, great question. We could have an entire podcast talking about childcare and being a career driven woman and like managing that childcare, right? We actually hired a nanny. So I have a nanny that comes into my home two days a week. I typically see clients just on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. And she comes and takes care of him while we're at home.

Joni:

How did you find the nanny? Is it someone you like were connected to or like a service.

Jennie:

Yeah, I actually used a service. I think it was care. com where we ended up finding her

Joni:

Okay. I've heard of that. Yeah. I'm starting to realize that's going to be our reality soon. I was like, Oh man, that sounds. Sounds like future Jennie's problem. I'm not gonna do it, but yeah.

Jennie:

wanted to like continue working after I had kids because I'm really passionate about what I do and it's a part of my identity. I didn't want to give up.

Joni:

Totally.

Jennie:

and so I don't know when me and my husband were chatting about it. We were just like hey, this is an option like let's, let's kind of explore this. So I talked to some of my other mom friends that have nannies and just picked their brains and it's worked out really well for us so far,

Joni:

Yeah, there's definitely, I feel like any working mom that I, I see in therapy or I do medications like it's always a conversation about like our child care changed again and it's just like this constant stressor, for a lot of working parents. And it's, sucks cause it tends to default to the female. Even if the female is the one that's like the primary breadwinner quotes around that You know, if they're working full time, it still defaults to the female. So it's just like an interesting, conversation that I've noticed how much I'm having. I'm like, wow, this is, uh, it just sucks. It just sucks.

Jennie:

I mean, there's so much that goes into that, like that idea of, we call it like mental load. You've probably heard that term used before of just a lot of the mental load of childcare ends up falling on the, if it's in a heteronormative couple of tends to fall on the female. So, you know, striking those conversations and like speaking of boundaries, talking with like the partners of like, Hey, how do we want this to unfold? What do we want it to look like? It can get. A little bit choppy there for a second because it's, it's hard, it's heavy, it's stressful, there's a lot of mom guilt. I work with so many moms who end up with guilt that just, I don't know, pushes them down of like, well, I want to work, I want to pursue this career, or maybe they don't want to, but they have to for financial reasons, there's so many things that go into that equation.

Joni:

Yeah, totally. I know this isn't fully what we're talking about, but just since we're talking about a little bit,

Jennie:

sure.

Joni:

if that's okay, uh, I think what is interesting is how many times the woman is the one that stays home from work when things fall through with childcare. So they're the ones that, like in our case, have to cancel their patients or, they have to call in to work and don't go to their meetings or reschedule their whole life for it. I think that's just like an important thing to be aware of, like, you said this before we hopped on, but you don't even know, what boundaries you potentially need to set in place, or what conversations you need to have before there's a child involved. Should we switch off? Can I not only be the one that stays home when the kid's sick? Yeah, because I think I would get very resentful if I was the only one that was ever staying home or had to, switch my plans around for, for the kid.

Jennie:

Yeah, and that's where I think, having these conversations frequently is important because, you know, when it comes to like talking about those areas, might have a plan and it might work for a minute, but if that resentment starts building, knowing how to identify that for yourself and then being able to have a conversation with your partner around that can be so important because I work with so many clients that that resentment starts bubbling, even within my own marriage, like me and my husband talk about this regularly, but there still is those little moments of like, Oh, okay. This one's falling back on me again. And so we revisit it and we talk about how to better support each other. it's just, hard and I think we're getting more traction around it now, but for a long time it wasn't something that was ever really talked about.

Joni:

Yeah, I think it's this, like, underlying reason why many people end up in therapy. It's like, I love my partner, but I also hate them right now. And it's because of this being this default parent, that mental load, the emotional load of, of being a parent. And it seems to just, it's so much worse once there's a kid involved. Not that the kid makes the relationship worse, but there's a lot more tasks to do. And a lot more things that fall to typically the female in it. heterosexual relationship. Okay, I feel like that's a good lead in to what we're going to talk about today. So, Jennie and I kind of went back and forth. Back and forth about some different topics we could address and you said you do sex therapy like perinatal. What was the third one? Oh and like

Jennie:

Totally. Um, and, you actually just had a baby. She was

Joni:

totally so we just had a sex therapy conversation. So we're talking a little bit about postpartum and boundaries because I had an episode on boundaries in like the second or third episode, but it's been a long time. So I'm really excited. Because this is like truly. I think after I get my patients sleeping a little bit, but Inherent in the sleep conversation is a boundary conversation, boundaries is like the number one thing I'm talking about,

Jennie:

I love, first of all, Joni, that you spend so much time focusing on sleep with your clients because that is a massive part of this,. What I find with, working in this field is that pregnancy and thinking about like having a baby is so full of expectations. And a lot of times we don't talk about them. We just are thinking then, we have them, our partner has them, our mom has them, our mother in law has them, friends, our own kids, all these people start thinking about like, Oh yeah, that person's having a baby. this is what it's probably going to look like. But because we don't really start verbalizing some of those expectations, now we have expectations that inevitably they're not going to line up perfectly. And so that can create a lot of really tough circumstances that people don't Don't always know how to get out of. And I think that's kind of what you're speaking to with your patients is like figuring out how to verbalize those boundaries. And setting those expectations can be so crucial in this conversation.

Joni:

Yeah, where do you feel like when your patients come to you, what are some expectations they had around motherhood or that they currently carry? I'm kind of putting you on the spot.

Jennie:

You're great. Honestly, I see such a variety. A lot of it I see around workload in the home, mental load. We were talking a little bit about that before. In like early months, I see a lot around like visitation and what they thought that was going to look like. Who gets up with baby in the middle of the night? How long do we want people at our house? People giving unsolicited advice or comments on like the way that mom or dad's doing something or on their bodies, you know, like, oh, you're breastfeeding, you should be dropping that weight like crazy, you know, like little comments like that. Even those are boundaries that have to be considered in that postpartum timeframe. So does that kind of answer your question?

Joni:

Yeah, it's just like fraught with, expectations. I'm pregnant for the first time and it was like maybe a month ago where I realized like, Oh my gosh, I have to give birth. birth soon. And then we have to have a kid and I've never had a kid. I don't know how to do this. And so I was telling my husband that I wanted to have a postpartum doula come and really just be a mentor for both of us as like new parents. so he's like, I don't really want someone to come and take the baby from me. I haven't been able to do anything. Like you're growing the baby, you did all the fertility treatments. I want to be involved. And I'm like, no. And so we just had to have this conversation around, like, okay, like that makes sense. That's important. And how does that impact, like my family visiting? Cause my family doesn't live in Utah. But also these are my needs. I really do well with having a mentor and someone like there to guide me when I'm feeling really stressed about something that I'm learning. And so, I knew that was something I wanted, but I didn't realize it was going to be such a conversation. Cause I felt like, of course I'm asking for help. Like, why would that not be with something you want? But it's just fraught with these conversations. And I think it's, it's good to at least expect, like, we're going to have a lot of new conversations about things that. We've never had to talk about before because we've never had so many people who want to be part of our life. My kid is the first grandkid on my side. Suddenly my parents both want to visit all the time. And like, I don't want to host you all the time. I wonder if they're listening to this. And so there's just like a, yeah, just a lot of things that are coming up before there's even a child here. And there's just going to be more and more that I'm not necessarily expecting.

Jennie:

Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, Joni, I love that you're having those conversations with your husband and thinking about that postpartum support, right? Doulas are phenomenal resources for that exact reason. and you know, there's a quote and this is so bad because I don't even remember who said it and I'm not going to get it a hundred percent right. But the idea is that you should hold the mother until she asks you to hold the baby. Like these support systems, we want to have them in place so that they're supporting mom. until mom feels ready and safe enough to say, Hey, can you hold my baby?

Joni:

I love that.

Jennie:

And I just think that's such a powerful way and something to keep in mind too, in this process of setting boundaries and navigating postpartum spaces. Because some moms are like, please take my baby so I can go rest. And other moms it's like, Hey, please go take over the laundry so that I can snuggle my baby. Like I need that right now.

Joni:

I love that. So let's talk first just what is a boundary? If someone's like, I've heard this term it's used frequently on social media, but what actually is a boundary? Because sometimes I think boundaries can be seen as like just being mean. how do you start talking about boundaries with your clients?

Jennie:

There's a quote by Pia Melody who, I don't know, she's just, she's great, but she says that healthy boundaries are not walls, they're gates and fences that allow you to enjoy the beauty of your own garden. And I love that as a perspective because you're right, one of the things I hear so frequently when I'm trying to help clients figure out where they want to place their boundaries, how to verbalize them to, to the people in their lives is like, I don't want to be mean. I don't want people to think that I'm not grateful for them or that I don't want them here because I do want their support, but I don't know how to navigate this. And so to me, a boundary is just something that, that you know, or maybe you don't fully know yet, but it's something that you want to try and enact in your life to help protect your garden and your space.

Joni:

I like also their gates and fences. You get to choose who comes in, who goes out. There's a lot more, uh, I don't know, even just the image, you think of like talking to someone over a wall versus talking to someone over a gator fence, it's much more inviting and allows for connection. Yeah. So I love that. So you have this great, Did you create this

Jennie:

did create this.

Joni:

this is so pretty

Jennie:

Thank you.

Joni:

This, worksheet. I'm wondering if there would be a way to share it. Or would you be okay with me sharing it?

Jennie:

Yeah, that's why I made it. I made it specifically for this.

Joni:

Oh!

Jennie:

I just find that like, I love listening to podcasts and I love like the tips and the tricks that are put out there. And I realized that like, it can be really overwhelming to remember all that. And so I just toss it into a little like worksheet so that listeners, my clients, whoever you want to give it to your own patients, Please use it that's what I created it for.

Joni:

I definitely will. Okay, so I will be sure to post this whenever we post this episode. But, let's go through some things, like, I guess your tips and tricks. Thanks! regarding postpartum boundaries. It just will go one by one

Jennie:

Okay, that's perfect.

Joni:

planning ahead. Tell me about that.

Jennie:

Yes, so I say this very cautiously and Joni you and I were talking about this before I Recognize there are spaces that you don't know that you don't know right like if you've never done this or maybe you're moving into child two or child three and things look different so I hold a lot of grace and space for that and I think it's so important to start thinking about these conversations as you're planning for baby's arrival Thinking about what you want visitation to look like, how you want to navigate people, wanting to hold baby and support you in that space. What is sleep going to look like? There's boundaries around that. Who do you feel comfortable having take care of? Pets or other kids in the home, if there are. Just all of these things that, are a piece of this postpartum space, that if we can start having these conversations early and collaborating with partner, I just find that it can be a lot smoother. So planning ahead just,, just creates a space of thinking about these things, having good conversation, not in the heat of the moment.

Joni:

I like that you say plan ahead, the listener can't look at this worksheet right now, but there's different areas that you recommend talking about with your partner if you have one. So planning ahead, but then you give lots of ideas of areas you could plan ahead for. So I feel like that could be kind of like, plan what? Especially if it's like your first you give tons of ideas of where you can start planning. okay, let's go, communicate clearly. Tell me about that.

Jennie:

Like we were mentioning before, I think when it comes to setting boundaries, a lot of people have a lot of apprehension around it because they're worried about being mean, a rude, right? And one thing I'll add to this is unless you've been taught some point in your life, how to communicate boundaries, it's not a skill you're born with, right? Like this is something that has to be developed. And so Giving yourself so much, grace in that of like, Hey, I'm still learning how to do this and that's okay. So in communicating it clearly, using honest language, being direct, being mindful of your tone and body language. We know that communication is so much more than just the words it's things with tone and body languages well. Framing it as like, Hey, I've been thinking about this time, this postpartum and like, these are some things that I think will help me. In my recovery, help us as we are, shifting to the changes in our family.

Joni:

How do you even do this? So how do you teach your clients? Like if they are not used to setting boundaries, because, assertiveness and aggressiveness can feel very equivalent for someone who's not used to setting boundaries. I use like the dear man thing from DBT, the acrostic, I don't know if that's what it's called, but how do you teach it? Do you like role play with them? Do you give them particular words that you, they can use? How do you go about doing that?

Jennie:

yeah, great question. There are so many different resources out there. for me personally, I talk a lot about using I statements, in the terms of like, I feel nervous about postpartum breastfeeding and having people in my space because of that, these are the boundaries I want to have in place. We're highlighting, the emotion that's attached to what you're nervous about or concerned about or stressed about whatever it is, and then it gives a beautiful segue into like, hey, these are some of the boundaries that I'm, wanting to implement.

Joni:

Yeah, that falls in line, I don't know if you've used, Dear Man, but I pretty much just say, if you follow this formula, you will be saying what you need to say. in a very effective way. You describe the facts of the situation. I, you know, I'm going to have to learn how to breastfeed in front of people and then talk about your feelings. I feel nervous about that. Ask for what you need. I would like, people to step out while I'm figuring this out because it's stressful to learn in front of people. And then say like why that's helpful. That would really help me as a mom to like, And that's something you could do to help, protect this space or whatever. And so I love, I love that, that focus on I statements and it's a little simpler too. When you have clients who are not familiar with setting boundaries, What's their response when they come back to session?

Jennie:

Just to make sure I understand your question clearly, it's like, if I have a client that's not really familiar with setting boundaries and they set one, what their experience is like.

Joni:

yes,

Jennie:

Okay. It varies client to client. Like I have some clients that come back and they are like, Oh my gosh, that was so great. Like my mom listened and she just heard me. And she respected my boundary. And then I have others that come back that are like, Oh my gosh, that was so full of contention. I hate contention. I don't know what to do now. My mom's mad at me. Uh, how do I, how do I reconcile with her? You know, so I see both, both sides of that extreme. so it really just depends on the client. I know it's not a great answer, but

Joni:

No, I think that's a honest answer, because you can set the boundary, but you don't get to choose their response.

Jennie:

no. And that's one of the scary parts about this.

Joni:

Yeah, people can respond really poorly to it. Let's skip down to your tip on number seven, prepare for pushback. Sometimes it doesn't go great or they're just like, they want to talk about it more than being like, okay, let's do that.

Jennie:

Yeah, absolutely. you know, What I tell my clients all the time when it comes to setting boundaries is just because you get pushback doesn't mean you set a bad boundary.

Joni:

Mm.

Jennie:

And I think that that's so important to understand that, chances are you are going to have pushback. And I think a lot of it comes back to those expectations that other people have around what your pregnancy and your postpartum are going to look like. Um, and so just because you're getting pushback does not mean that there's something wrong with the boundary. Now, another tip that we talk about is sure. There are spaces to consider some compromise and some flexibility, right? Sometimes it can be helpful to have a conversation around the boundary. However, you never have to compromise something that you and your partner feel is right for your family. A lot of times, people are getting pushback because they're benefiting in some way from you not having that

Joni:

Mm hmm.

Jennie:

what they

Joni:

Yeah, definitely.

Jennie:

Yep, This is perfect.

Joni:

Uh, I need this conversation. Uh,

Jennie:

so one of them is,

Joni:

that's great. I think it's also helpful. partners aren't always on the same page, but if you are on the same page. It can be helpful to be like, well, these people are not reacting well to this boundary, but we know that that's what we want, and that's what's important to us for our family, so we're going to keep doing it, and they're going to be upset, and that's their choice. Like, they get to choose that reaction. what are some other tips you go over? We can maybe just cruise through them instead of me going one by one.

Jennie:

Being willing to accept help, and it's okay to accept help within certain types of boundaries in your space and routine. Now, obviously, people are going to do things differently. People may not clean a bedroom or a bathroom the same way. They may not do laundry the same way. They may not have the exact same minute that you want to eat dinner, right? Like there gets to be flexibility in some of those spaces. But you don't have to let somebody into that junk room that you've got at your house that you don't want anybody to see, right? Like you still get to have boundaries around accepting help. And I know for so many people there's a pressure of like, Oh, well, I'm, I'm a mom now. I'm just supposed to know. I'm supposed to just have it figured out. And that's just not true. If you've never done it, how are you supposed to know how to do it, you know? And so, being willing to lean into some of that help can be really crucial during that time frame.

Joni:

Yeah, Our, like, individualistic society plays in a lot to this period of time, where it's like, we can figure it out, but you can never have too much help. I guess unless it's help you don't need. But if it's help you do need, this is the time to be very accepting of it and receiving it instead of giving it, because you are giving a lot to this newborn. And even if it's not a newborn, maybe you, you're Maybe you're postpartum a year out and you still need a lot of help. That's totally fine to continue to accept that help or, or reach out and ask for it if you can.

Jennie:

Yes. Yes. And you bring up a good point with receiving too much help. Sometimes there's a conversation that has to be had around like, Hey, I know that you were planning on coming to stay for a couple of days. I'm not sure that we're in a space that we need that right now. Maybe we can have you come in a couple of months when I need an extra hand. Little conversations like that.

Joni:

yeah, that's good. Sometimes big conversations like that. Yeah, hitting on my stuff right now. Oh, man.

Jennie:

But yeah, it's crazy how our own stuff bubbles up in so many of these spaces,

Joni:

Totally. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a reason why this is something that I'm really fascinated by. So okay. What are some other ones?

Jennie:

Yes. So we've touched on this one briefly, but getting partner support can be a massive, massive relief in this space. You brought up something earlier though, like not always our partner is going to see eye to eye and that opens a whole new can of worms, right? Trying to figure out what's going on in that space. but in, in the perfect world, right? When our partner can be supportive of us, it can make a world of difference. with my own pregnancy, I had an experience where my, my husband and I had kind of hashed out like what we were anticipating our delivery, like how we wanted our delivery experience to look. And we had picked a couple of people that we felt could be in that space with us. And we received a bit of pushback and some other people wanted to be at the hospital and I was so grateful that my husband and I had had that conversation earlier and he was able to kind of take that one from me and just like, Kind of, you know, hey, no, we've kind of made our decision. We'd appreciate if you respect that. You'll get to meet baby a couple of days after the delivery.

Joni:

Yeah, it is helpful, again, like, going back to that first tip of planning ahead, because I do think that there's a sense of entitlement when there's a child in the family, at least, of like, oh, I want to see the baby, but it's like, well, it's not your baby. It is my baby, so you get to choose even if it doesn't feel like it, even if you're used to having, you know, you're being parented by someone and you're learning how to become a parent, it's helpful to plan ahead and really figure out what it is That's important to you during that time. Um, and then it's so much easier to communicate that in the moment instead of just being like, Oh, okay. Yeah. Come on over, I guess. Even though I don't really want you to. So

Jennie:

Absolutely and that kind of leans into you know, another tip that I think is important is just trusting your instincts. Trusting yourself to know what's best for you and your baby and you know that that entitlement that you were just mentioning Yeah, people are kind of like, oh, it's it's It's my new niece or nephew, or it's, my new grand baby. And I love that. I love that that baby is getting so much love already. Right? Like there's so much beauty in that. And the other side of that is if you're the birthing parent, your, your body is healing through a lot. You've just had a huge experience and something crazy happen, right? If you're choosing to chest or breastfeed, That's a big change. That's something that you're figuring out. you're sleep deprived. You know, there's all these things, that you also get to have a say because you're a big piece of that equation as well.

Joni:

Absolutely. It is so interesting how the attention shifts so quickly from like, when you're pregnant, how are you feeling? How are you doing? To how's the baby doing? How's the baby feeling? Instead of like, how, how's mom? Cause you just grew a person and then they remove that person from your body or you push that person out. But it's very easy to kind of forget that this person is recovering from a. huge change in their body.

Jennie:

Yes. Absolutely. Yes.

Joni:

And then the last two you have are being respectful and revisiting as needed. Can you tell us about those two?

Jennie:

Yes. So, kind of like we were mentioning with the communication piece, doing your best to be respectful. One thing I encourage my clients to do is if they're getting pushback on a boundary, get curious of where that pushback could be coming from. Like, is this a first grandbaby? And grandma and grandpa are just so excited to meet grandbaby. Great, we can give them, some space with that. and so just, giving that benefit of the doubt, as you're communicating those boundaries, trying to be firm and respectful, not having it escalate into a crazy big fight, right? Because that's stressful. Nobody wants that in an already kind of anxious time of thinking about having a baby, or maybe baby's here and you're adjusting to the changes. Thank you and then just revisiting it as needed. There are so many unforeseen circumstances and experiences that could be coming. And so being willing to have some flexibility to revisit that, to, to check in frequently with your partner around how you both thinks things are going can just really help aid in executing those boundaries in a way that feels supportive for everybody.

Joni:

Yeah, something you were saying when you were talking about being respectful. I do feel like, if you can have a conversation, it is important to incorporate feedback because maybe you Like you said, oh, they want to spend time with the kid. That's awesome. What can I do to facilitate that? Maybe not on their timeline, but I also want that. That's also a goal of mine. I just think that flexibility. Like you talked about before is, is important because, I mean, even just within a partnership, no one gets what they want all the time. So there needs to be that ability to see that side and. Trying to have a real conversation about it instead of this being like a one sentence Hey, I don't want any visitors for the first two weeks. There's no conversation about it. Sorry. It's easier to really stand behind your boundaries when you've thought about how this impacts other people and what you're okay with and what you're not okay with and their side of it.

Jennie:

Absolutely. And then I think, you know, this, this isn't on the worksheet, but one thing that you get to decide to is what level of vulnerability you want to share as to why you're setting that boundary. If you've experienced, say like a sexual trauma and you're like, Hey, I don't want anybody, but me and my partner in the delivery room, there's like a level of vulnerability in sharing that, right? Maybe you just don't feel safe with other people. Deciding like how much of those spaces you're willing to share or, maybe your mom's past and you don't have a mom in your life. And so being willing to share, like, Hey, I need this space because I'm also experiencing a little bit of grief. Because I'm trying to figure out this motherhood thing and I don't feel like I have my mom to ask questions to. So that can kind of help in explaining to that person you're setting the boundary with, Obviously based upon how much safety you feel in sharing those different types of vulnerable spaces.

Joni:

That's good to address because you don't have to share them. I do think when I give people explanations, they're more understanding, but that doesn't mean that I owe them an explanation. Like, I think of when we were going through fertility stuff, had to ask some people in my life, like, hey, I need you to stop bringing up regarding us having children. And they were like, Oh, I don't do that. I'm like, yes, you do. And I like listed out multiple examples. They're like, Oh, I didn't even realize I did that. And I'm like, this is really painful for me because I can't make a child happen. We have tried, it has failed. And then they were way more, cognizant of that. But I was in a spot where I could share that. And I didn't share that for a long time. And I just kind of took it and just let people say whatever they wanted. So it is hard because you, you don't want to betray your own sense of safety and betray yourself to make it more comfortable for somebody else. But it can help a lot if you are comfortable sharing.

Jennie:

Yes. And Joni, I love that you mentioned that because you're so right, we, we don't owe anybody an explanation ever. Like your boundary gets to be your boundary. And I find that for some people it can be helpful in just letting that person understand where that boundary is coming from. But again, a no means no, right?

Joni:

Right.

Jennie:

that still gets to be a thing, too. So, fantastic point to bring up there.

Joni:

Before we kind of get into the different areas that someone might think about setting boundaries, do you have any examples of your own from your own postpartum? And if you don't feel comfortable, that's totally okay. But you had your first kid 18 months ago. What were you surprised by or what were boundaries you needed to set that you didn't realize you needed to set?

Jennie:

great question. So I kind of mentioned the one previously just from like who we wanted in our birth space, I know it's not maybe like full postpartum at that point, but you know it kind of is so that was a really helpful one my birth story is actually a little bit different I had a pretty traumatic birth. And so a lot of the boundaries that I had set had to shift Because I left the hospital unable to take care of myself The boundaries that I thought I had in place, that was a really good example for me of things that needed to change. so it's a little bit hard for me to think of the specifics around some of that, because, we had these ideas of like, okay, I'll have my mom here from this time to this time. I'm not comfortable with these people taking care of baby or helping take care of me, but I had to allow for some flexibility in that because of the situation. So,

Joni:

I think that's an excellent example of, that first point where you said, yeah, you can plan ahead, but you say that with grace because you can only plan so much, and it may radically change as it all unfolds.

Jennie:

yeah, absolutely. A big one that I had in mind was I knew there were certain people in my circle that had experience with newborns and certain people that didn't. And so one that I was pretty firm around if somebody was going to be in my home taking care of me and my newborn, it was only certain people that I knew were competent and I trusted with my baby. because that was a really big source of anxiety for me. I couldn't lift my baby. I couldn't move baby anywhere, around my house. And so I had to have somebody that I knew I could trust to take baby over to the changing table, change their diaper. I had to have assistance with everything. That was one that I knew I didn't want to be too flexible on because it was, it would have induced so much anxiety for me.

Joni:

That's a great point. was that hard to find? Were you able to find some people who could, you could trust and? who could take care of both of you guys.

Jennie:

luckily I have, um, A really incredible support system and I know that not everybody does and I'm so mindful of that and that can obviously be a barrier when things like that come up But for me personally, I had some select people that I knew I could trust They were so gracious with their time And their scheduling and they were in a space that they were able to kind of move things around to be able to support us And support me and baby through that time frame.

Joni:

I'm so glad.

Jennie:

blessed very lucky in that regard.

Joni:

Yeah, I think, but also there is room, maybe you're kind of forced to because of your situation, but you had to also accept it. And I think sometimes people do have a good support system, but there is a lack of, uh, Vulnerability and being able to ask for that help, and maybe like I said, maybe your situation is like, no, I need it. So, so I don't get to choose at this point. But yeah, I think that is something. that I talk a lot about. It's like, who can be helpful? And usually they're like, Oh, my mom or my mother in law. But outside of that, there's not really thought about who can be a part of that support system.

Jennie:

Yeah, for sure.

Joni:

So what are some areas you like to talk about? You have it listed like as an activity, which I'm probably gonna do this with my spouse later on. But it says, Activity, consider the following boundary areas and write your ideas, concerns in each section. Complete by yourself and with your partner.

Jennie:

This kind of goes back into, there's spaces that I find that sometimes we haven't considered regarding postpartum boundaries. And so I tried to just create something that allowed for, early on to start thinking about these areas. so The first one that I think is so important is visitation. And this is one that maybe is a little bit more like people might think about it when you're considering postpartum boundaries. but things to consider are things like timing, specifying preferred times for visitors, duration. Do you have a timeframe of like, Hey, I don't want visitors for more than an hour and a half at a time or 45 minutes at a time. Health, right? Like asking people to stay away if they're not feeling well. When they get there, wash their hands, wear a mask. Certain people have ideas around like vaccines or things like that. So, um, just considering all those different aspects of visitation.

Joni:

Yeah, I love that. I think the duration can get very specific in a very helpful way. Like, I want someone to come for an hour to visit, and then we're gonna kick them out. Because that feels like a lot of work to visit for an hour. Or for someone who's really, extroverted, maybe they're craving that. And I'm like, please! stay as long as you want, but maybe the partner is not as into it. And is there something else they can do during that time? I think the health status is very interesting, especially if you're having a kid. Anytime people can get sick, but in the wintertime, That's a tricky one for some families. So that's, that's really good. Yeah, I love that, that that would be a conversation to have. I'm like, already in love with this little worksheet you created. This is so good. Okay. So what about help and support? What type of

Jennie:

Yes.

Joni:

want to set around that?

Jennie:

Yeah, so we kind of touched on this just briefly in the tips section, but accepting help with chores, but you can be clear about what you need. Someone saying, Hey, I really want to help you. A lot of times our gut response is Oh, that's okay. Don't worry about it. It's like, no, tell them what you need done. That would be so great. Baby puked all over the bed. Could you please go pull the sheets off my bed and we can get them washed and put back on, you know, Oh my gosh, that'd be so helpful. I haven't had a chance to like. Clean my bathroom or sweep the floors giving specific things can be so helpful then people aren't just like floundering around and then that helps create boundaries too of You know if you don't want people when you're downstairs or you're upstairs or whatever it is Give them tasks that don't require them going into those spaces because people want to help people truly I believe the majority of people want to be supportive during that space and if they don't know how And we're not verbalizing to them how it just creates a space.

Joni:

I hear some people say, like, yeah, I want help, but I don't even know how to think of specific tasks at that point. I'm just so in the moment. So do you have any suggestions around that? Or, maybe coming up with those household chores you're okay with beforehand?

Jennie:

I encourage some of my clients to put tasks on sticky notes and put them on a whiteboard or a wall somewhere in their house so that when people come over during those postpartum, months when like, your body is still healing, they can be like, Oh yeah, the floor hasn't been swept for a minute. Like maybe just, maybe you could do that. So listing out the things that you would appreciate support around, and then you can just even say like, Hey, yeah, there's some, tasks listed over there. If you want to pick one, I would be so appreciative. Thank you so much for offering.

Joni:

I love that. let's see. And then you also mentioned child and pet care. Is this like planning ahead of who you're okay with taking care of your other children or pets? Is that kind of the conversation?

Jennie:

yes, the reality is, is there's different levels of trust, there's different comfort spaces, and so I just think kind of navigating that early and finding people that you trust to take care of. Your kids or pets for that, you know, especially those first couple of weeks and maybe it's not full time But even just having somebody come into your home. Maybe it's two hours a day to take care of your older kids. I know for me personally i'm very passionate about this one because Trust is something i'm huge on making sure that I know my kids are taken care of And safe with the people they are with is paramount And so just kind of thinking about that early having some people in mind You know texting people. This is another thing I'll have my clients do is texting people that you do trust and say hey Are you okay if I put you on my list of people that I trust for my postpartum time? With my kids with my pets with my house chores with grocery pickup like whatever it is Just having that list of people already mailed down can take a lot of the stress off later.

Joni:

Yeah, I love that. personal space.

Jennie:

This is an area of setting boundaries that Sometimes it feels like, oh, it's whatever, but the reality is, that rest and recovery, is crucial. And so, creating boundaries around your personal space that feel good to you. a big one that I loop in with this is feeding. Whether you're creating a private, quiet space for breastfeeding or bottle feeding. Based on your comfort level, for some people, they're really comfortable breastfeeding wherever. For others, they're not. And so, being really mindful of how you want to navigate those boundaries, during postpartum can be just really important. And then kind of like we were mentioning within your home, there might be areas where you don't want people, verbalize that. Or close the doors and ask them not to enter. Like, we, We don't want extra stress and anxiety during that healing time, if possible. It's already stressful enough.

Joni:

totally. I don't know if this goes in a different one that you've brought up later, but I also would think like commentary on your body could kind of go into this. And this is something I struggle with personally. Like, when people say things that I don't like, I'm not good at saying, Hey, I'd appreciate it if you didn't comment on my body. Some people are really good at that. I have a really hard time with it. I mean, I don't even know if I myself could implement the boundary, but maybe even having my partner when people come over and say like, Hey, let's not comment on anything around Joni's body while you're here. That would be really helpful. I think that could also be one that could be helpful. Be gripped into that. Oh, I guess you have sensitive topics down here. Okay. Yeah,

Jennie:

Yes. I think I put it under communication, but honestly, there's, overlap here, right? And that's to be expected. And I did have some stuff on there, but I don't remember exactly where it fell on the worksheet.

Joni:

yeah, yeah. You have it on there. I think that's great. Okay. Parenting choices. I feel like this could be interesting because at least for me, I think like how, how many parenting choices could possibly be critiqued right away, but I'm sure there's a lot.

Jennie:

So many. Oh my goodness. So many stories and just things that clients have shared my own experiences. One thing that I find with advice and parenting choices is I think that a lot of people mean wealth, right? When they're giving advice, when they're giving ideas, they're doing it because they're just trying to be supportive. And I think that can be a very gentle reminder for most people, internally of just like, Hey, you know, that person's offering me some advice that's maybe unsolicited, but I know they're doing it because. They're seeing that baby's crying and not calming down and they just want to try and help in that space or whatever it is. So, deciding, what level of advice you feel okay with. And this is one that sometimes you don't know until you're there, You may not realize that the advice that's being shared is starting to bother you or it's making you feel incompetent. Or you're feeling like, Your mom doesn't trust you, or that your mother in law thinks you're a bad mom. That might be one that you don't even realize until it's kind of happened a couple of times. And that can be a little overwhelming.

Joni:

That's a good point. You also just don't know what people are going to say. Like, people are just wild cards. Sometimes they say the craziest things, like, where did that come from? Why did you think that was okay to say? so it can be very surprising, like, I guess planning ahead on that one could be very challenging.

Jennie:

Yes, and then the other piece of that is like, who gets to make the decisions? Just recognizing that the decisions regarding baby care there yours to make at the end of the day? Yours and your partner's and we want to keep baby safe. Obviously, that's number one priority and keeping you safe But at the end of the day those decisions get to be made by you

Joni:

Yeah, how would you, can you give me an example of setting a boundary around that? What would that look like? How would you verbalize that?

Jennie:

like with

Joni:

Parenting choices. like someone keeps offering advice and you're like, I'm kind of over this. This is not helpful. This is actually just hurting my feelings. Just an idea of how you might address that?

Jennie:

Yeah. let me think of an example. Okay, here's one for you. Let's say that you have decided to do sleep training with your baby and that's something that you're wanting to implement, right? Is like you're wanting to have a good schedule, a good routine. You're trying to implement some of those things and people are making comments around like, Oh, well I can't believe you're letting your baby just cry. Like you need to go get your baby. Or maybe it's comments around babies, you know, they're that little, they don't need a routine yet, they don't know, just, just go get them out of their crib, I want to hold them, just wake them up, just get them up real quick, I want to see their eyes, right? That's a good example spaces that I've seen boundaries pushed, reflecting back to whoever's trying to push the boundary of like, yeah, I know everybody wants to cuddle the newborn babies, right? They're so fun to cuddle. Yeah. I'm really wanting to make sure that they get their rest right now. So I'm just going to let them sleep, but they'll probably wake up in the next half hour and then we can see their eyes. kind of reflecting to them potentially where, you know, their excitement is or where their concern might be, and then just holding that firm boundary line and then following it up with, if there's something applicable to the choice that's being made.

Joni:

I feel like it'd be really easy. Well, it also depends on the relationship. If it's like a friend, be like, Oh, yeah, no. But if it's like a parent, it might be a ground for an argument, which is obviously not what you want. And then like we were saying earlier, even if you set a boundary, that doesn't mean they're going to accept it very well. And so it could still work. bring up a very uncomfortable argument. But, I think that's a good way of going about it, at least saying like, ah, no, we're not going to do that. Baby's going to sleep, but they'll be up soon.

Jennie:

Yes, Exactly. Exactly.

Joni:

Social media. This isn't one that I've really thought much about, maybe because I post on social media, so I don't really think about it, but what have you come up against? What have you heard as potential boundaries people want to set and, that people don't always want to respect?

Jennie:

yes. So a big one in this is what you want posted of your child on social media. I have had a couple of different clients that, we get talking about their birth and their delivery and those first couple of months. And, it was their mother in law who posted the first picture of baby online and it's, it's just really hard for them. Like they want it to be the first ones to get to do that. Or maybe they don't want pictures of their baby online at all. And they were posted without asking, without consent given, being given. and so just being really mindful of what you want privacy around that space to look like.

Joni:

And kind of giving people a heads up beforehand, it sounds like might be. The way to go about that one.

Jennie:

Yes, yes. And I think, another piece of that is like, if you are the one that is maybe posting pictures or things like that, maybe just check in with mom and dad. Like, hey, are you comfortable if I do this? And then being okay if they tell you, no, we actually don't want that. Because I think that's an important conversation to normalize. We get really quick to just like click and post. And sometimes we're not taking the consideration, some of the privacy pieces of that.

Joni:

yeah. yeah. that one kind of reminds me of some things I was hearing. I think it was a friend was sharing with me. And it goes into the communication one as well, but they said we didn't text anybody when we were going into the hospital because we didn't want that pressure of people being like any news, any news, any news, any news, any news. And so even like having a conversation around like, do we want people to know we're, in the hospital, not because we don't want their support, but because we want to, like, really be able to cherish this time that this human comes into Earth. I, I just kind of thought when I was hearing that, that'd be a helpful way to set up a social media boundary beforehand. Like, no one's gonna post, grandbabies on the way, you know?

Jennie:

right? That there's like added pressure and anxiety.

Joni:

and then random people are texting you like, Oh my gosh, I want to see a picture of the baby! I thought that was an interesting, um, thing to be private about that. I, wouldn't have thought that that could be induced, like, pressure. But it

Jennie:

Yeah.

Joni:

people.

Jennie:

Yeah. And again, with that space, I think it's important to remind ourselves to like, those people are doing that because they're excited. Right? Like, Typically nine times out of 10, it's good intentions. Right? Trying to just keep that in mind. I know I did that a lot for myself Of like these people mean well, it's just because they're excited, you know, and that doesn't mean you have to break that boundary line

Joni:

I also say that as someone who's done the wrong, not the wrong thing, but like, yeah, I've been really excited about it. about someone having a child and, maybe texting them in a way like, Hey, how are you doing? But they don't really want to talk about how they're doing right now because they're in labor, you know? And so I think also just recognizing, we've all made these mistakes to some extent, and not even necessarily mistakes, but just recognizing We don't act perfectly in every situation, and I think that's the benefit of having these conversations beforehand is then if people can tell you, this is how I would like you to treat this situation, then you can be an even better support.

Jennie:

Yeah, absolutely we've all we've all done that. Our friend has a baby and we're so anxious to text them or whatever and I think a lot of cases it's really benign right I think one piece of that is just as the person sending the message or the text or giving the phone call, not being frustrated if they don't respond right away.

Joni:

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Communication. What types of things, we kind of touched on this with the body image thing, but what types of communication boundaries do you have? Might come up.

Jennie:

Yes. So one of those is availability, right? Like when you do or don't want phone calls or visitors and that kind of leads into some of the other spaces we've talked about. And then the other big piece in this is like sensitive topics. Comments on your body. Hey, when are you getting back to exercising? Have you made it back to the gym? Another big one I see with that is people that are wanting to hear your birth story and if that's not something you're ready to share or it's something that feels really vulnerable. Another piece of this, and this is a little bit before baby gets here, but I know from so many people that, you're getting ready to have a baby and they're like, Oh, do you want to hear what happened to me when I had my baby? It was horrible. And then you start to hear all these birth traumas and these crazy stories, right? And for some people that's just not helpful. That's another area of like sensitive topics just to be mindful of as you're navigating that space.

Joni:

Yeah. I, sometimes I recognize in people's, desire to connect. it's almost ends up being like a one upper, like, oh, well, your baby is sleeping so much better than my baby. And then you're like, well, that makes me feel bad because now I can't even complain I'm not allowed to struggle right now. So I feel like. And I think the people who do it never actually realize that they're doing it, but,

Jennie:

Totally.

Joni:

But yeah, that's something to be cognizant of.

Jennie:

Yeah, absolutely. The comments of like, oh, be ready to never sleep again, and say goodbye to your sex life, and things like that, that it's like, people are just, trying to be relatable, and trying to, maybe make even like, some jokes around that, but, for some people, if that doesn't feel helpful, then you don't have to sit in those comments.

Joni:

I sometimes think, this is like a more overarching thought, but, Even in my own life, I've thought, am I too sensitive? When I set these boundaries around things, like, is this a me problem? And it could be in some areas but I think that there are certain topics that people are more sensitive about. There's things that people will say that don't bother me at all, but there's other things people say that really hurt me. They're touching on something that's more painful. And so. I guess just recognizing, if you can recognize some of those things that are, are more painful right now, like if you have, if you're a really insecure person, maybe someone, giving you advice is going to be really hurtful because you're going to feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so bad at this. I'm never going to figure this out. So I think it's helpful to kind of look at where your own sensitivities and, and try to build up your support system too. Have people who can be kind to those, and address those in a, in a nice helpful way instead of an accidentally hurtful way.

Jennie:

Yes. 100%. And you know, in that postpartum timeframe too, like sleep deprivation, hormones are shifting, you're trying to learn new skills. Like there's so much, there's so much that! goes on too, that just increases, some of that like, I feel so sensitive or whatever it is. So,

Joni:

Yeah, that's a really good point, too, when I talk about it, at least in like presentations I do, I'm like, it's like the worst period you've ever had. I'm saying this as someone who hasn't experienced it, but like that decrease of progesterone is what happens when you have a period and that time can be kind of emotional, but you're having the highest levels of progesterone or estrogen you've ever had in your body and it's crashing down. And so that is going to impact your mood, like pretty much a hundred percent. They say like 80 percent of people have baby blues. I'm like, eh. I bet it's 100%.

Jennie:

sure.

Joni:

I don't know how someone doesn't feel a little bit more sensitive, a little more emotional, at least while their body's adjusting to this new hormonal landscape.

Jennie:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Joni:

Okay. Emotional support.

Jennie:

this one just kind of is looking at like, Hey, who do you feel comfortable communicating your needs to, considering settings aside time for like professional counseling is needed. What boundaries around that look like?

Joni:

I can't think of boundaries outside of maybe I want to create time for this. And then support system, like who do you want around you, but, uh, I don't know, is there any specific ones that come mind in this area? Yeah.

Jennie:

I think you hit on two really big ones. Another one that sometimes I will encourage, clients to consider with emotional support and boundaries is thinking about asking your partner if they'd be willing to check in with you every Friday night at six around XYZ thing. Having somebody that can kind of help check in on you because I mean postpartum, anxiety, depression, all those things are no joke, right? And so asking your best friend if every once in a while they'd be willing to check in. In this I will also put a plug for like make sure you're checking in on the non birthing parent. Because they too can experience postpartum. mental health struggles. And then on the flip side of that, if you have somebody who's like hounding you constantly on your back about like, Hey, you doing okay? How's your mental health? Yada, yada, yada. And it's getting to be too much being able to verbalize and say, Hey, I'm really doing okay. I'm watching for these things. If they come up, I will let you know. So

Joni:

great. That's probably where I'm more lean sometimes. They're like, shut up.

Jennie:

Sure. The pendulum can swing too far, right? Like that's a very real thing. sure,

Joni:

that I'm seeing the 25 percent who do struggle and I don't see the 75 percent who are doing fine. So, I'm like, I don't know. I think everybody struggles.

Jennie:

I do the same thing. Yes,

Joni:

I think that's good to have some safe people that it won't bring up this like defensiveness, but you actually are wanting them to check in on you. I think that's a great idea. partner relationship. Mm

Jennie:

I should have left two boxes on that worksheet for this one, because there can be so many things that go here. The big things are like roles and responsibilities, dividing baby care, household care and responsibilities, just all those aspects. Quality time, trying to figure out how you want to navigate quality time together, what that looks like, introducing a baby into a space that there hasn't been kids before it changes things. It changes the dynamic as it's supposed to. just Having conversations around that quality time can be really important. Sex and intimacy is a massive one that I see clients coming to me for, you know, I had baby. I don't feel like having sex anymore. My partner. And I used to love it or maybe you've never loved it and but you figured out a way to get through it, right? Whatever it is. And the other piece of this that I will just toss out is be willing to listen to your body Trust its healing process just because you get the green light from your doctor at six weeks doesn't necessarily mean you have to go home And have sex right away like please listen to how your body's feeling where it's at and it's in its healing journey

Joni:

Something I've been thinking throughout this is that it can get a little tricky, not just with sex. I was thinking more about the time together, like spending time away from the baby and just like with your partner. When you have these, more anxious, I'm going to just say moms because that's who I work with, who are very scared to leave the baby alone. they don't want anybody else to take care of baby and that could be really a sign of like OCD earrings. Significant anxiety and then the other partner is like, well, I really want to spend time with you one on one But you're at the sensitive spot. I don't want to push you too hard. And so there is some room for like Some self awareness I think because it unless you have like a good friend that can kind of say like hey you seem really Like you don't let other people take care of the baby. And I'm concerned about how that's going to impact your relationships moving forward. Have you thought about seeing anybody about it? In one of the tips you're like, your instincts, but sometimes your instincts are anxiety.

Jennie:

Yes. Oh, Joni, I love you. Bring this up. And we could have had a whole podcast specifically on this, right?

Joni:

so it's really this tricky balance And I feel like it's helpful, you know, someone who does therapy, I can be like, Okay, I get what you're saying, I know you're not comfortable with it. This is anxiety talking, this is not your intuition. However, that doesn't mean that anybody can say that and it be heard and received well.

Jennie:

Yes. Now we're, how do you, how do you tweeze the two apart? Right. That is so hard. And I have so many patients that come to me and they're like, well, I'm worried that my baby's going to stop breathing. Maybe that's my instincts talking. Versus, is that my anxiety talking? And that is such a tough space to understand and navigate. And so I'm so grateful that you, you bring that up. Because that's massive in that postpartum era.

Joni:

I don't know if I could even think of like advice around it, because these People who are in that anxious spot, it feels like life or death a lot of the time. It's like, why would I risk something that is so important to me when I could just not leave them? Or I could check on them a lot, or I could always be the one that puts them in the car seat. You know, all these different ways that it comes up. I don't know if there's a good way to, maybe this would be the benefit of planning ahead, like saying like, Hey, if you see this in me, can you let me know? I may not respond to it well, but you know, maybe I can start searching out for some help. It just seems like a really hard time to have that conversation, like when you're in, you know, in it. Because you do feel like, I am being a good parent, why would you prevent me from being a good parent? It's like you're, you're over parenting. You're being too good of a parent where it's hurting your relationships and yourself.

Jennie:

yes. And you know, one thing with that that I think can be helpful, and I know that it varies like doctor to doctor in space to space, but when you're filling out like an Edinburg postnatal depression scale questionnaire or your doctor's asking you about like, how are you really doing, like being honest with yourself in those questions. If it's something that like, no, I am actually anxious all the time and it's, inhibiting my ability to sleep or connect with my partner or I'm feeling so down. Nothing is fun or funny anymore. being willing and I know it's so scary and so vulnerable to do, but being honest with yourself in those spaces too can kind of be a good indicator and a good check in on some of that.

Joni:

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Because sometimes it does just have to come from within. I remember I was going to say earlier, the partner, you said it's not just the birthing partner, it can be the other one as well. I guess a plug. PSI is doing a paternal mental health, um, conference in Salt Lake in September. So if that's something you're interested in, you should go to it. Or anyone can go to it. Someone on our board, Misty, really wanted the paternal conference to come and be hosted here. And so, yeah, it's a Thursday and Friday in September. I'm really excited for it, because I do feel like, I mean, you work in sex therapy, so you probably see more of the partner, but I don't, and so I feel really at a loss, So, anyways, I'm just excited about that, and I think 1 in 10 dads is like the statistic we have, but that's just depression, that's not even necessarily anxiety, and so, It can happen really easily to, to any primary caregiver of the baby, and so, just a plug there.

Jennie:

I love that. I didn't know that was happening, so thank you for that

Joni:

yeah. Okay. Last couple ones you have listed our work and career and then self care. So let's talk about work and career.

Jennie:

Yeah, so work and career, just thinking about maternity leave, Joni, you and I had a conversation about what child care is going to look like when you return back to work. a Big one around this is what does your availability look like? While you're on maternity leave, are you answering emails? Are you answering texts? Are you completely cut off, from that workspace? Just what did those boundaries look like? And then thinking about and communicating boundaries for transitioning back to work, are you comfortable jumping back into a full 40 hours? Can you collaborate around maybe having a week where it's part time, moving up into full time? If you're breast or chest feeding, do I have a space where I can pump at work? Do I have a space that I can store my milk? Those are all really crucial questions when we're thinking about returning to work.

Joni:

Yeah, and not even just like a physical space, but like the time, like am I going to be supported to be able to take the time to do this in between my meetings or patients or I don't know what people do outside of health care, so whatever, whatever you have at your job.

Jennie:

Sure.

Joni:

okay. I love that. Uh, I guess just like as a personal example, I work with someone who's fantastic and she's like, how long do you want to be on maternity leave for? I was like, uh, three months, I guess. And she's like, great. And so I've already started prepping my patients like, Hey, I will be taking this maternity leave. You're not left out in the cold. This is how you can still be supported if you want to see someone else. So it does take a lot of prep prior, and that's one piece of all of this. So I think it's, a good example of how helpful it can be to think about these things beforehand and putting things in place beforehand so that people can follow those boundaries.

Jennie:

Yeah, and I think that brings up a really good point too of like different careers and jobs are gonna look different, if you're a schoolteacher and have a long term sub and there's things you're wanting that sub to do like thinking about that beforehand You know if you're a nurse at a hospital It may be an opportunity where you get to kind of be more disconnected because there's other people that can fill in the gaps a little bit more easily you know if you're a therapist or a Healthcare professional like things look different in that space. So Yeah, conversations just to consider for sure as you're entering that postpartum era.

Joni:

yeah, that's great. Sometimes this can bring a change in their work or career, recognizing like, oh, I'm not being supported in my parental leave. And maybe this isn't somewhere I'm ever going to come back to, but I'm not going to tell them that until I've had my full maternity or paternity leave. It can definitely bring on some, some change. Some changes Okay. And then self care. I love this one. This is my favorite one to talk about.

Jennie:

I think this is such an important conversation. It's kind of a buzzword right now. I feel like everyone's talking about like, Oh, how's your self care? You know? But I'm grateful for that because I think it's bringing up such important conversation. Of like, what are you doing to take care of you?

Joni:

Well, and I like what you put in the self care. You didn't put facials and massages. You put alone time, exercise, health, doctors, appointments, counseling, like things that actually improve health overall. And I would add time with friends, time Doing your hobbies, things like that.

Jennie:

Yes, and you know, I tossed some of those things in there I don't want it to now be framed as like, oh, well you went to that doctor's appointment by yourself Like wasn't that enough self care? No because there's basic things to that right that it's just that's just taking care of self this one I think encompasses a lot of things because we're getting the side of the spectrum where it's like no These are more of like just basic human needs around caring for yourself. And we have the other side of like your hobbies, getting to go out for girls night chatting with that friend or buying that new book and reading it or whatever it is. More of the like buzzword self care versus the actually taking care of self.

Joni:

Yeah, I like to ask people, and it's helpful if they've kind of developed a sense of self prior to having a kid, and that's not always the case. But like, what do you love doing right now? And how can you make sure that's something that's still part of your life? Uh, There is this, I guess picture example that I was given when I was an intern at Serenity, and I think Shelby created it. Shelby? I can't remember her last name right now, but she's one of the therapists there, think of like a pie and before you have a baby, you like have all these pieces of yourself, you're, you're, Maybe like you're really into yoga. You're a friend, you're a partner, you're a daughter, you're, a baker, you're a student, you know, you have all these pieces of yourself. And then when baby comes, it often becomes like 95 percent of that pie chart is mother and maybe 5 percent is for like anything else. And so recognizing what are those pieces of yourself that. That you really loved and brought you joy and maybe it won't look the same, but can you bring them back into that, pie and make some time for the things that are good for you? Not necessarily, good directly for the child, but it is good indirectly for the child. because if you're taking care of yourself, you're modeling like, oh yeah, I matter and your needs matter and we can both get what we need out of life without, the mom fully sacrificing themselves for their kid.

Jennie:

100%. And, you know, we live in a, space where there is a lot of pressure of like, Almost feeling like you have to give up who you are when you have a baby. And what I find is that with the majority of my clients, that's not a very helpful narrative. And then what happens is I have moms that come into my office and they're like, I don't even know who I am anymore. I don't know what I'm doing, you know? and then you think fast forward 18 years and those kids are leaving your home. What are you left with? A big piece of this self care is just remembering that you, you get to still be a person. You get to have identity. being a mom is one of my favorite titles. I will forever cherish it. And I have other pieces of my identity that I love and I'm not ready, to not foster those spaces just because of my mom hat as well. And I love what you're mentioning too, of just, when you're taking care of yourself, you show up as a better mom.

Joni:

Yeah, definitely. well that's the whole worksheet. I know that kind of took a while to go through. So, it's definitely worth it to spend a little time now to. to figure out what you and your partner need so that you can better prepare, and yes, it's not going to prepare for everything, but just have a better idea of what each other needs in that postpartum time. And then I think you could do this for, birth as well. Discussing what, what's important to you for your birth.

Jennie:

Absolutely.

Joni:

thank you for creating this and for sharing it. I'm so excited to use it When I have patients that are like pregnant and starting to prepare for their postpartum.

Jennie:

Yes. I was going to post it on my website so people can download it.

Joni:

Oh, perfect. I prefer that because then I can link it.

Jennie:

Okay.

Joni:

Share it on Instagram, like just a screenshot of it if you're okay with that.

Jennie:

Absolutely. I didn't put that I made it. Does that matter?

Joni:

You should, you should put it somewhere for just for credit and people can come back and thank you for your, this takes time. I mean, I know it's like, I was supposed to create worksheet for PSI so long ago. I have not done it because it takes time to create a worksheet, even though it's like just what you already do, but you have to make it clean and direct and no typos, all that,

Jennie:

For sure.

Joni:

well, if someone wants To work with you, Jennie, do you have openings right now and how do they get in contact with you?

Jennie:

Yes, I do have openings right now. So if they're interested in working with me, you can go to my website. I have, like, a little, fill in your information and I'll contact you. I can get you my phone number. Joni, people can, like, text me or call me too. I'm pretty responsive because I'm so passionate about people getting support.

Joni:

Something easy to say, or is it

Jennie:

Yeah. it's therapyprisma. com, maybe not the easiest to say, but I will, I will get it linked and sent to you so that we can add it maybe in just like the notes of the podcast.

Joni:

Yes, that'd be great. Cool. Well, thank you for spending like. so much time with me this morning to teach me about this. I think this is going to help me personally and help a lot of people as they listen and then also just patience I have now. I'm definitely going to utilize this tool that you've created.

Jennie:

no, I'm grateful. I mean, this is such an important topic because it can just create so much empowerment. And I think that's a big piece of this too, boundaries can be a way to empower moms and dads in that postpartum era. I

Joni:

I love that. I've heard someone say this can build your self esteem, whether people listen or not. Like realizing what's important to you and, and then being able to verbalize that is really, like you said, empowering and be like, Oh, I do matter. My needs do matter.

Jennie:

Well, and the other piece too is like, these are skills that you take for the rest of your

Joni:

Yeah.

Jennie:

use now. You're going to use boundary setting through every era that you have. Yeah.

Joni:

a really good point. Cool. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Jennie.

Jennie:

Absolutely. Thanks, Joni.

Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club.

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Joni Lybbert

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