The Sad Moms Club
A podcast to connect Utah women--especially those who are infertile, pregnant, or postpartum--to the local maternal mental health resources available. I interview providers around Utah to help bring therapy tips and coping skills conveniently to your ear-holes.
The Sad Moms Club
49. Surviving Birth Trauma: Des Ferrin's Story
In this episode of The Sad Moms Club, we are joined by Des Ferrin, a maternal near miss survivor and birth trauma patient advocate for the Utah Department of Health and Human Services. Des shares her personal story of postpartum complications and resultant birth trauma. We explore her efforts to bridge the gap between birth trauma and maternal mental health in Utah, including her work with the Utah Women’s Newborn Quality Collaborative. We discuss the importance of a supportive environment for mothers, effective communication in healthcare, and innovative approaches to improving maternal mental health care.
02:47 Desiree's Birth Trauma Story Begins
05:02 Complications After Delivery
08:00 The Hemorrhage and Emergency Response
14:28 Facing a Hysterectomy
32:40 Miraculous Survival and Recovery
34:12 Mental Health Challenges and Seeking Help
40:47 Finding the Right Therapist
46:27 The Importance of Connection and Support
52:57 Advocating for Better Maternal Health Care
01:04:05 Final Thoughts and Hope for the Future
If you have had a traumatic birth while living in Utah, feel free to email Des to discuss setting up a 45 minute interview to share your story and ideas of what would have helped. Her email is dferrin@utah.gov.
If you need help finding a therapist in Utah, go to this website (be sure to filter by your insurance!). Always feel free to reach out and ask for help finding a therapist through my DMs.
Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the sad moms club. Today, we talked to Des Ferrin who works for the Utah department of health and human services. As a birth trauma patient advocate. She is herself, a maternal near miss survivor. And she tells us about her story of. Of her birth trauma. So. Trigger warning for those who this might be unhelpful for at this time. To really harrowing story. And then what she's been able to start doing within the state of Utah is really, really cool. She's currently collecting stories to try to figure out how they can better bridge the gap between. Birth trauma and maternal mental health, because that's a gap in care that she faced herself. So some of you may have actually talked with her or interviewed with her. to share your own stories so that she could collect more data. And learn how providers and hospital systems can be doing a better job. So let's talk to Dez.
Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club.
Joni:I'm just going to let you explain yourself because you're kind of involved in things that I don't know too much about. So, tell me who you are, where are you at in Utah, if you want, and, what you do.
Des:So I am Desiree Farrin, Des is what I prefer. I live in Liberty, which is on the backside of Ogden. We're in a little small town. I work for Utah Women's Newborn Quality Collaborative, which is our state's perinatal quality collaborative, and we work on quality improvement in maternal health. And I'm the birth trauma patient advocate. I am also a maternal near miss survivor, and that's how I got this position, and I love it.
Joni:How long have you been in the position you're in now?
Des:A year. I met with them a year ago in February, and then I had said, Hey, I have these ideas, they were like, what would you fix, in maternal health and for mothers who have birth traumas? I was like, I really wish that we could bridge the gap between maternal mental health and birth trauma. Cause I really struggled and I was very isolated and they said, great, let's get it funded. And I was like, oh, oh, oh, okay. I didn't know that's what we were doing.
Joni:Now I
Des:so, yeah, I was like, Oh shoot, which was great because in July we sat down and wrote the position and then, as far as I know, I think I'm the only one. I think nationally, that has this position. So it's kind of a big deal that Utah has this and that we are trying to, fix and fight for moms.
Joni:Yeah, that's incredible. And it's under, the Department of Health?
Des:Yes, so I'm under Department of Health and Human Services under child health is where Utah Women's Newborn Quality Collaborative falls.
Joni:Okay. So I would love to hear about the work you're doing and how you are bridging that gap and, like, what holes you're seeing in care, but first, do you mind sharing your own birth trauma story with us and take us back to, did you say it was five years ago?
Des:That's five years ago today, actually. Yes.
Joni:That's wild.
Des:So I have three kids. I have a 13 year old, a 10 year old, and then I have a five year old and my husband and I have struggled with infertility with each baby. It's been a long, rough journey for anybody who's been there, you know. and the first two babies were pretty awesome. I really believe birth is magic. And I still believe that even after my experience, that moment when they hand you that baby, there's just nothing like it. It's just incredible. So I blessed enough to have two really wonderful births. With my second, had to be readmitted for an infection. but even then that was like not a big deal. It was easy. And then when I had my third, we did not find out the gender, which was really exciting. We had one of each. So we just thought, Oh, this will be a really great surprise. My family was there because I think it's so great. I wanted everybody there. I want everyone to experience that moment when that baby enters.
Joni:Can I ask, uh, how was your pregnancy? And then who was at your birth, specifically? Like, how much family?
Des:yeah. So I have, other than being incredibly sick, I do have hyperemesis with my babies. I, yeah. Other than that? especially with this pregnancy, I was incredibly active. And even up until like the day I delivered, I was, I was more like shuffling five miles. Like my runs got really slow instead of they were more of a walk, but I was very active, very healthy. no issues. Yeah. Other than the vomiting. And With my mom and my dad and my sister, and my mother in law, um, they were all in the room with me and then, you know, the nurses and the doctors, it is, but I just love, I just think it's so great. So I just wanted everyone to share in that moment with me.
Joni:Not really expecting anything to go
Des:We had no idea what was coming, in which I, I was lucky enough that I was able to be naive about it, about delivery. Um, which, I know thAt is a privilege that not everybody gets, I know that now. But I just wanted everyone, it was like a party. Come on and meet the baby, we'll find out what the baby is.
Joni:Yeah.
Des:so I, I was induced, I'm a great candidate for it. Each time, you know, I walk in at a four before I'm even in labor, they induce me. We had her get to be about eight hours to have her you know, they're yelling, it's a girl and it's so exciting and secretly that's what I wanted. Even though I'm not supposed to say I wanted a girl over a boy and they hand her to me, they put her on my chest. And it's that moment of like, it's a blur your body. I feel like your body just kind of takes over and they hand her to me and I'm holding her and I remember thinking, Oh, last time. The afterbirth seems like really quickly after, but I'm like, oh, it's different this time. I'm not paying attention. I've got this baby. It's taken a long time.
Joni:Wait, what did you say was really quickly after? I
Des:the, the afterbirth,
Joni:What? Meaning birthing the placenta?
Des:like the placenta? Yeah, like the placenta and the rest of the delivery. You have the baby and then you have the afterbirth after birth, after.
Joni:Got it.
Des:so I kept thinking, oh, but I got a baby. I don't care. got the prize and my doctor said, Hey. Your platenda is not delivering. I'm gonna have to go in and get it. Okay, Mike. Oh, okay. When? And he's like, unfortunately right now. And I'd had an epidural. So he just went in and did a manual extraction. My sister said, it's like what I imagined them birthing cows is like, cause his elbow was gone. She's like, how did that even happen? And I was like, I swear he was scraping my lungs to get everything out. And,
Joni:Like you could feel it up
Des:Oh, I for sure could feel it. Even though I had an epidural, you can feel the pressure. You can feel it all. and he, I remember him saying, I'm so glad you had that epidural. We needed to go in and get it. So we do it. The placenta comes out. I don't have baby anymore. I've passed her off to my husband. They're doing all the checkups and my mother in law was so sweet and she's doing the video of the baby. So I didn't get to see those moments. And all of a sudden the room's full of people, but I'm like, that's weird. never had that happen before and my doctor starts showing other people like, do you think we've got it all? We have the placenta and they all start to agree. Yes, it looks like it's all there. And I remember the nurse is saying, that's a lot of blood. Do you want us to get blood? And he's like, no, no, no. But start giving her methergine, which is just a shot in your leg.
Joni:What is it for?
Des:it's to cause contractions to stop the bleeding. So I get my first one and I'm still bleeding. Um, so they give me a second and my body starts to shake pretty badly after this. And I remember my dad was so sweet. He was really aware of himself in the room. And so he just stayed by my head the whole time. And then. I'm starting to shake uncontrollably, which is not that uncommon after delivery. And he's just like rubbing my shoulders. and he's like, you're doing great. I'm just so proud of you. I love you. And I'm like, okay, is kind of intense. Everything gets under control. I sit in the room for a little bit longer than normal, just as they're watching me. And I think, well, that was it. They wheel us back into the recovery room. At this point, it's like one or two in the morning, everybody leaves, we start making phone calls to family because we have a lot of family out of town and we wanted to tell them like, Hey, she's here, it's a girl, and I just kept thinking, well, that was weird. That's my war story. I had a weird delivery. My claim to fame will be this delivery. we just went to bed that night and I remember I held her about an hour and a half Like it had been about an hour and a half since the manual extraction. And I hadn't really paid attention to her because it was just so much happening at once and like unwrapping her and thinking like, Oh my gosh, you're just the stamp of the other two that I've had. You're mine. tell my husband, she's so cute. She might be our cutest one, but don't tell the others. Just very blissful in the moment. I stayed at hospital two days, they checked me for bleeding, they were very aware of that. Then I went home and we started life and it was good. we had our, little family, we had a rhythm going With my other two babies. I have stopped the postpartum bleeding pretty quickly The first one was ten days and with my middle child my son It was six days. So I kind of expected to be the same And I would bleed really heavily and then it would stop and then it would start back up pretty heavily again. And I just thought, Oh, it's three babies now I'm doing too much. I was back with my friend walking because I've been cleared to walk, just nothing else. So I thought, Oh, I need to stop walking. So that's it. So I just won't do that anymore. Or I just need to lay down more often or I need to slow down. And that didn't seem to stop the bleeding. It would just stop and then start. And when it would start, it was heavy and it was a gush. And I just assumed that my body's way of telling me to slow down.
Joni:So it went longer than those other two, but was it a different amount as well? Like looking back, were you like, Oh, this was actually more, but I just thought three babies it's fine.
Des:Oh yeah.
Joni:Okay. So it's like a different amount and it went longer. Wow.
Des:bleed pretty heavily in the hospital, they give you these like giant skateboard pads and then you can taper those off pretty quickly. Or at least I was always able to taper them off quickly. And this time it was like almost, every time it would come back, it was almost like I was back in the hospital every time. Just that heavy gushing, a gush. And then it would stop and you know, I'd use a pad again for several days and think, Ah! Why am I still doing this? But I would stop doing what I was trying to come up with some reason why this was still happening and it's embarrassing. Nobody wants to talk about bleeding. that's a problem. We should be talking about it. And so I wasn't reaching out to anybody cause I I was embarrassed. So I kept it quiet and I Finally confided in my sister And said, Hey, like, is this normal? Did this happen to you? Cause I know she had bled for the full six weeks. And she said, I don't know, but I, after. You know, 12 years at that point of infertility was friends with my doctor. And she said, why don't you just text him? He can tell you, I don't want to give you the wrong advice. So I texted him and he was like, you know what? I don't feel comfortable with that. Just since you had such a weird delivery, I'd really like to just see you. I just want eyes on you. So he just said, show up whenever you want. I'm here all day. So I got a babysitter for the kids and my husband was out of town. My husband's first, my husband's a pilot, so it's his first trip back to work. He had a month off.
Joni:postpartum were you at this point? How long was this after the delivery? Right. Okay.
Des:I'm five weeks postpartum at this
Joni:Oh, wow, a while you were bleeding.
Des:we're living our lives at this point. Um, yeah. So I went in and I my husband to work that morning. I didn't think anything of it. and I went to the doctor and he's like, there it is. But he had an ultrasound. He says, there's a silver dollar size piece of retained placenta. And he's like, that is so weird because we checked it he said, I triple checked that placenta. I don't know how this got left. you're lucky. These are usually found in a hemorrhage or an infection. So let's go ahead and do a DNC tomorrow and we'll get it removed. We can't leave it. Because it's so big. How do you feel about that? I'm like, I feel fine about it. I've had them before in the past from incomplete miscarriages. I'm like, that's an easy procedure. doesn't feel as invasive to me as the other procedures I've had through infertility. So not that it's easy, but I thought okay And I called my husband and he's like, do you need me to come home? Like no, my mom can be here. She can help my dad's willing to watch the kids, you'll be home that afternoon I just needed someone home that night because I wasn't allowed to be alone with the baby since I would be going under anesthetic He's like, okay. I'll come if you want me to I'm like no It's fine. You know, fly your trip as normal and I'll see you when you get home. So we go in the next morning and my mom was like, Hey, how about you nurse the baby? I'll text Justin, my husband, and we'll let him know that you're going in and nurse baby. And then, she'll be fed by the time you wake up and we leave and get home, you'll be ready to go because it's a 20 minute procedure. It's pretty fast. So I was like, perfect. That sounds good. They wheel me back. And I wake up and my mom comes in the room and she's like, you have been gone for ever. No, I haven't. It's only a 20 minute procedure. She's like, Des you've been gone a really long time? Baby's hungry. You need to feed her. And I thought that can't be right. My mom just must be nervous about the baby. So I'm starting to feed the baby and my mom was like, Hey, you got to call Justin. We need to give him an update. Just tell him I'm awake. What update does he need? And I start nursing the baby, and we're in a surgical center. My OB's office has a surgical center in the basement, which sounds creepier than it is., I'm in the recovery area, there's a curtain and I know that there's a couple right next to me. And I lean on my mom and I'm like, mom, I think I'm peeing my pants. And I hear the guy next door go gross. I'm like, oh, that's so embarrassing. But I'm like, I've never done that. Not even pregnant. I'm like, why am I peeing my pants?
Joni:And you're like, have no control over
Des:No.
Joni:oh, I can't stop this.
Des:Yes. And I'm thinking, Oh, it must be from the procedure. I must be kind of numb. My body's still waking up and I pull the covers back and we look down and it's just blood and there's just blood all over in the bed. So my mom's like, I'll go get a nurse. And my doctor comes in at that point and he's like, you began to hemorrhage pretty heavily on our table. He's like, I'm going to leave you here. We're going to have you stay for the day. We might send you over to the hospital. We just need to figure out a few things. But I'm going to leave you here. We're going to put you on Pitocin to contract your uterus. I got everything out. We did an ultrasound. I know there's nothing left. But, you're still bleeding. And I told him, like, put my IUD in because I'll be asleep and then I don't have to feel it. He's like, I put it in and you bled it right out. You can't have one, you'll have to wait. And he's like telling my mom, she's not protected. My mom is like, don't give me the sex talk. She's here. he's like, you're just going to stay. We're going to need more methogen. I got a couple more shots in my thighs and we're just going to control the bleeding and see where you are. And I started to pass very large. Like very large clots. And I I know people change their stories or things get embellished. Like it's not a fish story. I felt like I had given birth and I was like, mom, I just passed something and I looked down, I'm like, that clot is the size of a Nerf football, like the smaller size Nerf. And my mom was like, I gotta get the nurse. And the nurse comes in and her eyes with just huge and she both hands to pick it up and she. Push more medicine and he's like, I don't understand. This is a hormonal issue at this point because there's nothing left You're not infected. You know, We know we've gotten the placenta. What is the deal here? Eventually, it stops and I go home that night I think okay. Well, that was another weird story. There you go There's my crazy birth Just a weird sticky placenta. I have no idea what that like the implications of that. I just assumed that's weird So we go home and we again start living our life we had just put a yard in So a week to the day we had put a yard in and I was sitting outside I had my furniture out. My kids are jumping on their brand new trampoline and it was actually Amazon Prime Day So I was sitting outside scrolling on my phone, nursing the baby, enjoying The new yard, my husband was downtown, playing hockey, so he wasn't even home. And I'm just enjoying outside and I'm nursing the baby and I think, Oh, why should I use the bathroom? I think I just paid my pants again. And then I thought, no, I didn't. So I stand up and I just see my new patio furniture, my legs. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm bleeding heavily again. So I call my doctor immediately. He's like, don't panic. I can meet you with ER right now. If you think I need to go, I will meet you. If not, let's go ahead and start the methergine again. We'll put you on oral methadone and I want you to take it every three hours. And if anything gets crazy, you call me, I will meet you anywhere you need me. I'm like, okay. I call my husband. I'm like, on your way home from hockey. I need you to come get this from the hospital. And he was a little panicked cause he felt bad he had missed. The DNC the first time, because he's like, you were just laying on a table bleeding and I wasn't around. He's like, what do you need? What can I do? I'm like, nothing, just come home, but bring this medicine. We called my in laws and just said, hey, I mean, will you take our kids for the night? We'll keep the baby with us, but will you take them just in case we have to go into the hospital? And they were like, absolutely. And I called a friend to take my daughter. got all the things arranged so a friend could take her to day camp for the day. And I'm like, I know this is being so dumb, but we're just trying to get things laid out in case there's a problem. But I'm like, I don't think there will be. I feel like I'm being a little dramatic at this point. So we crawl in bed that night. I lay all the little chucks pads out in my bed cause I did not want to have any blood in my sheets. I have to come home and clean everything up. I laid in my bed again, scrolled my phone cause it's Amazon prime day. There's nothing holding a baby, put bassinet and we go to sleep. And I wake up in the morning. And I am dry as can be. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I am such a drama queen. I made a big deal about everything. I feel done. My doctor texted me. He's like, how are you feeling? You didn't call me. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I'm wasting your time. There's nothing like, well, I still want you to come in. Okay. just show up. At this point after all these years, you don't need an appointment. Just show up. Just walk into my office. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to shower first we'll probably head down about an hour. I live about 40 minutes from the doctor's office. Great. I'll see you when you get here. And I'm in my bedroom and my bathroom. I have like a, the bathroom and then the master closet and my, Laundry's at the one end of the closet and my shower's on the other end. So I walk to put my clothes in the hamper. And by the time I hit the tile, it's just a murder scene. It's just heavy gushing blood. I'm like, Justin. And he comes in and he's like, get in the car. We're going to the hospital. But you Call the doctor and you tell him we're on our way. Like, okay. I called him and he was like, just come straight to me. I can admit you to the hospital faster than an ER can. You'll waste your time in triage. Just come straight to me. So we get everything situated. We get in the car. I pack some diapers. Like I threw a diaper in the bag just cause I didn't think it was going to be what it ended up being. We get down there. I'm wearing another skateboard pad thinking like this is going to be. A mess in my car and I get to the doctor's office and I'm not bleeding. I tell my husband, I'm like, I feel so dumb. He's like, don't. And if nothing else, you and I are going to go have a great lunch. I'm like, well, I want pancakes. He's like, well, I want sushi. So I'm like, okay. When he's like, whatever, we'll just see how we feel when we leave the doctor's office, like we just didn't understand what was about to hit us. go in, get in the office. I sit on the table. I'm in the stirrups. He wants to do an ultrasound I'm laying down he's like, Whoa, that is a very angry uterus. Do you see how much blood, the blood flow in your uterus? There's so much happening right now. And I remember I'm laying back looking at the ultrasound machine and I remember asking him, is there a sink on? I hear water. I hear like a splashing and he pulls me up and he says, no, it's you. And we need to go to the hospital. Still in my head. I'm like, what? And he said, I need you to tell me how you feel about a hysterectomy. Like really bad. I do not want that. Cause in my, head I thought, Oh, you get to the hospital, you don't like bad things don't happen. Once I'm there they'll have the appropriate help. I'll be okay. So I'm like, I don't really want that. He's like, well, I need you to wrap your head around the fact that might be happening today. I was like, it's probably not going to happen. I'm going to get to the hospital. We're going to come up with a plan and it's going to be okay. And he said, I, I have a couple methods. At the time I didn't know what he was talking about. He was like, but you're not a candidate for a BACRI balloon, which is where they, Um, insert a balloon and, blow it up to
Joni:Like it holds pressure
Des:pressure. Yeah. And he said, you're kind of bleeding too heavily and you're pretty far postpartum. And I don't know if we can, get it in there and have it stay with that amount of bleeding. That's not an option. He's like, there's an old school method of TXA and it's a medication. We can try that. And I'm thinking, Okay, whatever you got to do, just do, but I don't want a hysterectomy. surgery really terrifies me. So I'm like, no, no, no, no, thank you. I remember looking at him and he just kept saying over and over again, you're going to be okay. You're okay. You're okay. You're okay.
Joni:Like he was reassuring
Des:yes. I'm like, why is he saying that so often? Genuinely, there is, it's a murder scene on the floor in there. There is blood everywhere. His shoes are streaked in the floor cause he slipped. It was a lot of blood. And so he tells his assistant to go downstairs and grab more pads of the big kind. And he's like, I just need to call, I just need to call the hospital. And once I call the hospital, we'll get you a bed and you just head straight to labor and delivery. He went over and got another doctor and said, I want a second opinion here of what do you think? And he came in and that doctor said, call an ambulance immediately. We cannot wait. And I'm like, no, no, no. Ambulances are so expensive. And he's like, let me just call the hospital. We'll get it all started. like, I just can't find the phone. And he's like, Angela, bring me the phone. And I look at him and I think he's got two phones in his hands. He has a cell phone and there's the office phone. And I'm like, I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. So they get me all patched up. I remember laughing about the medical office and I are shoving pads in my pants. And I'm like, sure glad I after all these years that we're friends that we can laugh about the fact that we're doing this together. my husband is running downstairs. He gets the car, they're wheeling me out. And she's like, are you sure you don't want an ambulance? I'm like, no, it'll be funny. Someday when we sell this car that there'll be my DNA in it. I'm making very obnoxious jokes cause I'm so nervous. And so like, they're funny to me, but they're not really that funny because I'm not really coherent at this point.
Joni:Is your husband as you guys have talked about it, did he realize at that same time, like, oh, this is serious? Like you saw the doctor flustered, but did
Des:Yeah, he did because he has the front row seat, right? He's watching all of it. It felt so surreal for me, but my husband was like, I was aware enough to know what was happening. I knew it wasn't good.
Joni:Gotcha.
Des:we tried calling my parents, no one's answering their phones. And my sister and I have always joked, which is probably not that funny, but again, we're making really stupid jokes at the time. We always said, Oh, I just want the golden injury. One where I can like sit in the hospital, they'll bring me food for a couple of days. But I'm not really hurt. I call her. I'm like, Hey, I'm headed to the hospital. I've got the golden injury. And she's like, what? I'm like, yeah, this I'm bleeding really heavily. I'm going to spend the day at the hospital. I'm not really in pain, she's like, well, should I be worried? I'm like, no, I don't think so. I do remember being on the phone with her and she's like, you're not making sense anymore. What are you saying? We're on the speaker phone and she's like, Justin, what is she saying? And he's like, I got to go. So we pull in. And I, before we had gotten there, I told my OB, I can't bleed this heavily and labor and delivery is on the fourth floor. And he had said, you're going to go into the ER bay. You're going to ask for a wheelchair. And then you're going to tell them, I already have a bed on the fourth floor. I just need a wheelchair to get up there. Cause I'm like, I'm going to leave a trail of blood. And he's like, I know, just go in and tell them you don't need to be seen, but you need to go upstairs. So my husband drops me off. He goes to park the car. And of course the ER staff come out. Anytime someone's peeled into it, into the bay. And she comes out and she's got the wheelchair and I said, I have a bed upstairs and she's like, you're not going upstairs. And I'm like, I have one upstairs. I don't need you. And that's all I remember. At that point I was unconscious. I woke up probably from the time when I told my husband, I wanted pancakes to this. It's maybe 12 minutes. Like it's so fast.
Joni:Whoa.
Des:it's, so I wake up, it's probably, I don't know how long, 10 minutes. I don't know exactly how long it could have been five, but it was a significant amount of time. They've called a code. I'm in the trauma bay. They have revived me. I wake up my, it's the ER my brother in law works at, we know everybody in there. They're my neighbors and I look up and I'm like, oh no, I'm naked on the table and that's my neighbor. Great. And I'm like, oh, good to see you. you know, and he's like, I'm so happy to see you right now that I can see your eyes. And the room is full of doctors and nurses, but once I'm coherent and I'm in trend Ellenberg, because anytime they tried to lay me flat, uh, which is when your head is below your heart, anytime you went flat, I would just lose consciousness again. I've got multiple lines going and, the room is buzzing full of people. And they had told my husband, he runs in, he's like, where's my wife? And the social worker comes to grab him and he's like, I don't want a social worker right now. I want my wife. I want to go where she is. And they're like, it's not the right place for you right now. They couldn't have them in there when the code is being called. So once I was stable enough, they brought him in and he has always said that when he walked into the room, it wasn't like you are walking the line between life and death. He said, you are running towards that line. I could see that this was very scary. they started blood at this point. have fluids, blood is going, I'm still hemorrhaging pretty heavily, but anytime I went flat, I would lose consciousness again. I couldn't ever sit up straight. or lay flat. And at that point, my doctor and the ER provider, both made the call. We're done. We're having a hysterectomy. And they came in and I had the sweetest nurse who was pregnant. And I said to my husband, I really don't want a hysterectomy. I don't want to be done. Cause I always thought, Oh, four is the perfect number. I remember looking at the nurse as she was trying her best to weigh pads and at this point, it doesn't matter. You're not going to collect the amount of blood I've lost. Cause how do you get it out of a car and the doctor's office and the floor? Yeah. again, they're slipping in the blood in the metaphor. Like it's, an insane amount of blood it's not me exaggerating. It was just that much. I look at her and I see her shoulder start to shake. And I'm like, why is she crying? And again, I'm not really coherent. So I'm like, aren't you an ER nurse? Aren't you supposed to be pretty tough? Later, my brother in law, who is a doctor there, he said, she told him, I can't believe we're sending this mother up to die on a table. She knew everybody around me knew my husband knew, but I just wasn't aware. And they came in and we finally, at this point, get ahold of my dad. And I was like. Dad, are you coming? I'm on my way. I can be there. wait for me. And he's like, I'm 20 minutes out. they come in I start signing consent and emergency history. These are vertical. And they start telling me, okay, you're gonna sign this. You're going to do this. And I'm like, No thank you.. I don't want a vertical incision. And she's like, um, I'm like, I would like mine scoped. Cause I don't know. And this is a major surgery that you would have had months to consider and think about and ask all your questions.
Joni:Totally. But it's like, you're gonna die in a few minutes,
Des:yes.
Joni:you make this decision. But you weren't really getting that,
Des:No, and I don't, I just know they're scoped. I just assumed it would be easy. And she's like, okay, but will you sign consent for vertical? And I remember texting my doctor and saying, Hey, I don't really want that. So if you can not if you can avoid it, and I texted him and said, Whatever you do, just make me look good. And I'm teasing, and I'm sure he was like, What is wrong with you right now? But in my head, I still am not aware of how dangerous this is. I mean, I know it's bad because every time I would lose consciousness, it would get harder and harder everything would just go black around me. And it would get harder and harder to fight back and come back. And every time I would start coming back, it was like, Oh, okay, I'm awake. But every time it would go black, I would think, Oh, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. And I remember the nurses and doctors saying like, fight for that baby. You got to stay awake. You can't fall asleep. And my doctor, my brother in law, the doctor, he had said later, that's really scares us is when we're doing everything we can in an emergency situation and we can't keep the patient awake. So I signed consent and I told the nurse, like, Hey, my dad's on the way. how long do you think I have? And she's like, we have an OR ready for this kind of stuff at all times. I'm like, well, he'll be here soon. And she said, honey, you don't have 20 minutes left, so we got to go now. They start wheeling us down and my husband's like, uh, I don't have any food for the baby. I only have one diaper. She's used it. And the nurse is like, we've got it. We'll take care of you. And we start walking down, the anesthesiologist shows up. And the funny part about him was he was my anesthesiologist when I had my baby and he, he had had the epidural twice and he had told me when he did the epidural, he was like, Oh, you're just so muscly, like a linebacker. And I was like, I don't really love being called that. And so when he walked in the room, he was a familiar face he was like, hi, I'm, I'm Dr. so and so and I'm going to take you down to the OR. Let's go ahead and get you ready. And I was like, I actually met you before and you did my epidural. And he's like, did I do a good job? No. And you called me a linebacker and he laughed and he's like, I think I remember that because you called me out on it. And I was like, I am so happy to see somebody that I know. Cause at that moment, my doctor hadn't arrived yet. And I just wanted. I wanted somebody familiar. I was at this point, I know it's bad. So I'm being wheeled down. My husband's following behind us. And when we get to the part where he leaves, he's so shell shocked that he just like goodbye. And I'm like, okay. And the nurse stops and says, no, you need to say your goodbye. And at that point, We are like, Oh, and I like, I'm like, I write letters to the kids every year. Here's where they are. Here's where this is. I'm trying to like throw what I need to tell him in 10 seconds. And he kisses me goodbye and I'm gone. And I get into the OR and at this point. I've never been this nauseous I mentioned I have hyperemesis. It was like that times a hundred. I'm so sick and they're trying to get me to not throw up because every time I throw up, I'm forcing out more blood. So they're trying to get medicine in me to keep me down, but everything is spinning. I am so nauseous, and I'm like, can I please wait until, until Wes is here, and I'm really afraid, and the anesthesiologist says, honey, I have to do some really uncomfortable things to you. You don't want to be awake for this, because I needed additional support during the procedure so it wasn't just the vent it was more Like I had art lines and some other things. think I need to put you to sleep. And so I looked at the room and I said, will you guys please stop for a second? I said, there's a baby who needs to know her mother. Will you bring your A game today? I really like, I know this is just another date work for you, but she needs her mom. And they were very kind and very sweet. And that's all I remember. And I woke up, um, A while later, uh, I mean, it was a rough recovery ICU time and all the things and I, my husband comes in and we're kind of coming down off of everything. And when I finally able to really discuss it with him, I realized like, I should have died. I should not have survived that. Um. This time. Everyone's there. My parents are there. My brother in law and his wife have shown up. they all are waiting for me to wake up and the doctor comes in after surgery to kind of debrief. And my mom said, I remember him coming in and just sitting down and going, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. And I, mom said, well, that was really crappy. And he said, no, that was really miraculous. We saved her. we're really lucky. My doctor was great. He checked on me probably more than he should have. He was there quite a bit enough that one of the nurses was like, are you his niece? I've never seen him come in and check on patients this month. And I was like, no, no, we're just friends, you know, I remember asking all these questions and like, wait, Wait, you take the cervix? Why would you take the cervix? I had all these things that you would ask, but I remember him just saying like, you just understand you're, you're lucky to be alive. I knew it had been scary, but hearing him tell me that was, was huge and then it like sank in absolutely terrifying this, this experience was. And then, you know, I'm at the hospital for a while, I had struggled to keep, a coherent a few times, I mean, I was very weak, to the point where they thought I had a pulmonary embolism, my, like, markers were high for it, and they had said, we're going to start some blood thinners, and then we're going to do an x ray. Usually x ray takes a long time. So we're going to start the blood thinners because we can't wait. And he said, like, you need to know you're not going to nurse again after this. And I was really devastated because it's the last baby and it's like, okay, but you know, what am I supposed to do? Within five minutes, in walks, CT. And I, Go down. And I remember laughing with them because I have a major surgical incision. I did not get scoped like I'd ask. And, They were like, scoot over on the table. I'm like, I, I actually can't, I don't have any strength right now. And so they went and got two really big, strong men and like put me in a swaddle swung me over and we laughed and it was like fun. I mean, fun in the fact that like I could find humor in what had happened. They get the results back, my doctor immediately text me and said, don't take in your blood thinners. You don't have an embolism. We've got to figure out what's going on, but you don't have that, which was great. They hadn't actually started the blood thinners yet because pharmacy was delayed. And so I was able to keep nursing, which I am so grateful for because I didn't think I would have the opportunity. And it ended up just being extreme blood loss of why I just couldn't, stay coherent. but I went home. I spent a summer in a reclining chair. I wasn't allowed to lift my baby. I couldn't, roll over in bed, I couldn't do anything for myself. And my husband's job was phenomenal. He flies for Delta Airlines and found out what had happened and they just said, stay home. and they said, We don't decide when you come back, you don't decide when you come back. Your wife decides when she's ready for you to go back to work. So he had four months off at home with me. so that we could just recover as a family, but the problem, this is where my, this is where my job comes in is going through an experience like that and then handing a new mother, a baby and saying, Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you're not dead. Good luck. isn't enough. And that's what I'm hearing more and more often. There's no mental health care provided. And a lot of that is nobody knows what to do or how to provide it. and you know, my doctor was phenomenal. He checked on me often, but when I finally, I think it was about, You know, you're, you're up at night, you're nursing a baby. It's two in the morning or you're like bottle feeding baby. It's two in the morning. No one's awake. That's when your brain starts to turn on. And I would replay what had happened. And I would think about, well, who would have told my daughter she was at camp? Who would have told her that I died and who would have said this, or how would this have taken place? Who would have taken the baby? And I was lucky. I had family My sister immediately came in, I had an aunt just come live with me for a little while. We had so much support, but all of those scenarios would just play out in my head. And I started getting really angry and really, Like, why did this happen to me? I wanted more babies. And because we had struggled with infertility for so long, I was really angry because I felt like now I've got permanent infertility. I always wanted a baby and that was always such a struggle. And when I would get pregnant, it was such a big deal. And now I'll never have that again. And a very well meaning friend came over She was just must have not been in a good place that day, but she kept saying, well, now you're sterile, now you're sterile. it just broke me and I was so mad And it builds.
Joni:And also not by choice. it's not like, oh yeah, that's what I wanted. It's
Des:Yeah.
Joni:no, I was planning on having another. That's a huge loss.
Des:My husband protects himself by saying, oh, we were done anyways. We weren't, I know he knows, but for him, he likes to say, no, we were done. We're getting older and we are older. Also. I wanted to make that decision. Even if we were done, I want to be the one to make that choice because I've never been allowed to make that choice of infertility. I wanted it to be mine for once. I wanted it to be mine. so my oldest was eight years old. This is very mortifying and embarrassing for me, but I think it's important to say, because know. It was about, I would say three or four months after the hysterectomy, I was helping my daughter. We were going somewhere and we were getting in the car and I just lost it. I was so angry and so mad and I remember just screaming at an eight year old it was like about a seatbelt or something, something so stupid and insignificant I stopped like mid yell and thought, Oh, I have to get help. at first I thought, well, I'm just a jerk now. That's my personality. But then I realized this isn't a personality. This is, this is bigger than that. and I reached out to my doctor all fell into very serendipitous in the way that it fell together. because my husband had taken so much time off of work, he had to have a medical note stating What had happened and we had turned in some paperwork, but it needed to be on official Delta letterhead. And so I had said, Hey, I need to come in and get this filled. Can I just drop it off? I just need your signature on it. He's like, yeah, absolutely. And so I had gone in right after I'd had the experience of my daughter in the car I walked in and he knew I was there cause they locked it back to him. So he came out to see me hugged me and he kind of held me back and said, you're not okay. I was like, okay. No, I'm not. but it was somebody else allowing me to be not. Okay. Because I felt that I wasn't allowed to, because I survived. And so can I complain? Like I would quietly cry in the shower so that no one could hear me because in the shower, It drowns out anything. So that was my time where I could let it go so that nobody knew how broken I was. having somebody else allow me to say, you're right, I'm not was huge. He was like, I don't even know what to do. I don't know who we call. We can try and find a mental health, like a maternal health specialist, but you might need a trauma specialist. I don't know. And I've come to find out since then, because of conversations I've had with him, he was incredibly traumatized as well. This was a big deal for him. He had to really process and heal from it as well. So he reached out to the head of psychology or psychiatry at the hospital that I delivered at and they didn't know who to send me to yeah. And they sent me to a place. They sent me to a woman who. They said, Hey, she's got some maternal health background and she's great. And I went to her and it was a terrible experience I sat down with her. I told her my story and she said, my sister died of this. How do you feel about suing your doctor? I was like, Oh, this is not for me. This is not for me, nor do I think that's an appropriate conversation to be having with a patient.
Joni:Well, it definitely sounds like a lot of projection, like, this was my sister's experience, and this is how we dealt with it. Uh, can I, say something real quick? Just going back to what you mentioned when you were yelling at your daughter, and I don't know if you realize it in the moment, or if you realize it kind of in hindsight, but I love that you didn't. That distinguishing factor of this isn't me. I'm not just a mean person now. I went through something. Cause so many Parents never get help because they assume I'm just a bad parent. Like I just suck at this, whether it's because of trauma or depression or anxiety or childhood trauma, that's coming back up, whatever they just blame themselves. So I'm so glad that you had that experience and then had someone say something that allowed you to start getting connected. Kind of.
Des:Yeah. well, and it definitely at the moment, I couldn't have done that. It took me, I mean, I. I was in therapy for three years, which I would pass it out like a tic tac. I think it's the best thing ever. Everybody needs therapy. You just need a person who's, yes, it is unbiased in your life. And that was definitely not my first one. And I committed to myself that I needed to get help and I needed, I wanted my family to get help. And at this point, my husband and I were not talking about it at all. I kept it to myself, even to this day, he doesn't like to discuss it. You know, it's very hard for him. I knew I needed to talk to somebody. So I called my insurance company or I got on my insurance company's website and I started calling and the last person on the list, when I called, she answered and it wasn't the secretary. It was just this woman and she happened to be over the Angel Watch program for I think IHC at the time. And I said, Hey, this has happened to me. And she was the first person that said, I am so sorry. I know exactly what that is. when would you like to come? I felt like I could breathe because I had somebody who I felt like who knew, cause I don't know anybody. And I do now because I, you know, I'm in different like national organizations,
Joni:Right.
Des:know anybody at the time who had ever even had, adherent placenta. I did EMDR, like a mix of EMDR and talk therapy. It was a three year, battle and it, it was the best thing I've ever done because it helped with other areas of my life.
Joni:Of course.
Des:It was just wonderful. And I, a year later during COVID, I had a fluke, uh, a very fluky, complication of COVID. And I. I almost lost one of my eyes and I ended up having like emergency eye surgery and with your eye surgery, you're awake for it. it was very traumatic, but it was so wonderful because I got out of the doctor's office and I called her and said, can we please have a meeting? Like I need some help and she was like, you sure do. Let's get this taken care of, you know, but I'd already knew a place to go that was safe that I could, I could get help.
Joni:that makes all the difference. What was the name of the therapist? Is it Amelia?
Des:Amelia Hopkins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joni:Oh,
Des:she's heaven on earth.
Joni:I'm so glad that you just kind of lucked out and found somebody
Des:Yeah.
Joni:specializes in that and could really help you. Yeah.
Des:a fluke. I don't think it was a fluke. I mean, I have my beliefs and I think Like I was intended to be with her, but at the time it was like the light that I needed. I didn't, Now that I know more about mental health, each baby, I absolutely have postpartum OCD. I didn't know that was a thing. I just assumed you have anxiety or you have depression. but I, with the first baby, I was so uptight about car seat safety that I certified as a car seat tech, which isn't normal, but I wanted to make sure she was exactly safe. And then with my other two, it was germs and I would wear the baby and make sure they were tucked in so that nobody could touch them. And I always had the little mittens on. So if they did, and people love to touch baby's hands and feet, so I would just pull those off put a new one on so they never got germs. And now I'm like, that's not normal.
Joni:Yeah. That's like a slam dunk OCD.
Des:but I didn't know that. I just
Joni:Right? You're being a good parent.
Des:Yes.
Joni:You're keeping your baby so safe. I know that's what's always so hard is like, especially with OCD, is these parents are being great parents, at least is how they think, like, how could I possibly risk something that's so important to me?
Des:Yeah.
Joni:would never, but you're overdoing it to the point of it can be harmful for you.
Des:Yeah. With her it was even worse because I kept thinking if something happens I can't have more. So I had this even more extreme stress of like nothing can happen to this baby. I would lay in bed, I had an Owlette and you know I was always watching it. I was, I Overdoing it. I wasn't sleeping. Cause I just needed to make sure she was okay at all times. but once I got the help I needed, it was better. one of the things we're doing now is, nobody in my world knows what this is like, and I'm grateful for that and I, I. I'm so glad that no one else has to experience this that I know, but there are moms. And if we can find them and just, if somebody had found me and said, this is going to be big and it's going to be heavy me and my husband, it would have changed everything for me. And
Joni:Yeah, and also just feeling connected, like, immediately.
Des:yeah,
Joni:and not that it's anyone's fault. This is the whole work of, I guess this podcast. is why I do it, is because I'm like, there are so many people who need help, who just don't know that they need help or how to find it. And it's just heartbreaking, because I'm like, it's out there! There's like so many therapists I know who are openly taking patients and they, they don't know that they exist. Or they see the wrong therapist, they have a really bad experience and then they never want to go back. Or they have a provider who diminishes their experience. Your work is so, so essential. And birth trauma, I mean, you know the statistics, I'm sure, but it's like a third of people say their birth was traumatic and like 8 percent experience PTSD. And so it's happening all around us.
Des:yeah, and it doesn't need to be this major, life threatening, I mean, if you feel like it was life threatening, right, it doesn't need to be that you spent time in ICU and had a hysterectomy. It doesn't matter. It can be, if you felt that stress on you, it's huge. And I think the March of Dimes said it's 45 percent of mothers will experience a traumatic delivery.
Joni:45%. Wow. I haven't heard, who did you say said that?
Des:March of Dimes.
Joni:March of Dimes. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So half half of the people who are giving birth are having some kind of traumatic birth experience, whether they develop PTSD or not, it still plays into your relationship with your child, with your partner, with having other children, your attachment, like it still has an impact, even if it's not diagnosable
Des:Yeah, it just one of the things that I just didn't know. You don't know what you don't know. And I had no idea. I interview moms now and we talk about their births and it's been really wonderful, but it's sad how many women that say, Oh, a doctor will ask me or tell me, Oh, if you're mopey or you don't want to get out of bed, give me a call. And that's not what it is. You know, how many of us are, we feel that way. We're struggling. We feel empty, but we're still getting up. We're still feeding our kids. We're still going through the motions. We just are not ourselves and we know it, but it's it's more than just, being mopey. It's more than being sad. It's, It's, bigger than that.
Joni:Yes, yes, I'm now seeing an OB, and they will do the PHQ 2, which I need to like, have a meeting with them,
Des:Yes.
Joni:like, do these presentations that I do with them, because on my PHQ 2, they're just like, are you depressed? And I'm like, no, I'm not depressed, but that's not it. That's not the only thing. And lots of people don't identify with depression. They're like, oh, I'm really overwhelmed. But I'm not depressed or I'm really mad, but I don't think it's depression. You just can miss so many people. And if it's only depression that we're talking about, and it's only not being able to get out of bed depression, that is, that is not capturing the picture at all.
Des:no. One of the things I'm hearing from these moms is they don't have, they don't have The language or the education to say an education in the fact, I mean, these are like women from all different facets of life. It's not an education issue. They just don't know what depression is. We don't know. And so they just assume I don't have it because no one has spelled it out for them.
Joni:Yeah. I lean anxious, and so I'm like kind of the researcher type of person already. And there's still things I'm constantly learning, and I'm like, how did I not know that already? And so if it's not on your radar You're not gonna know it. The only thing I knew before I got involved in this was that postpartum depression was a thing. Didn't know it could happen during pregnancy, didn't know it could be anxiety, OCD, PTSD, Bipolar disorder, panic disorder, like it can show up in all these different ways. I knew nothing and so I'm lucky that I feel like I'm going into this really knowledgeable about what could happen and what resources there are, but you shouldn't have to Get a graduate degree and then specialize, just happen to specialize in this to know it. Like I would want all these moms and dads and just parents in general to know this information.
Des:I think is what's interesting In the birth trauma world. So many women are looking for a villain and they want to be a doctor. They want to be the nurse. But the reality is we just want to know what happened. We want that validation that comes from understanding what happened to us. And most women never get that. We never get the feedback of, Here's what happened. Here's what you need to know. if you are able to have more children, here's the plan going forward. You know, there were never given that, a debrief appointment if we could get a debrief appointment, that's one of the things we want to do. We just have to work on insurance companies to see if we can get it paid. Because if you only have a 15 minute window and that mother needs 45 minutes to ask her questions what we're finding is women need at the delivery. Someone needs to say to them, this was big. They need, very early on, someone to say, that was traumatic. Or you might feel this way, to acknowledge that something might have, might have happened. Which is hard, because trauma is in the eye of the beholder. So, what you may see is not a big deal. It may impact her the rest of her life. But then we need more than a six week appointment. We're at that same appointment where she's supposed to ask her questions. You're giving her birth control and asking if she's sleeping. How does she feel? All of the things are packaged in this 15 minute appointment. she doesn't even get the opportunity to say, okay, wait, what happened?
Joni:Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be incredible. And I mean, even six weeks out can be kind of long. Six weeks of being in a really bad spot, and then not getting sleep on top of that. Any other additional stressors that are going on in their life. That's a long time to have to wait to get that information. And then, having a debrief and then like, Here's what you can do. Here's a support group you can go to. Here's some therapists that take your insurance. Here's a virtual support group in Salt Lake so you can meet other moms. Whatever it is that they, that they need. So let me ask, so you saw this disconnect of like, I had this traumatic experience, didn't know how to get help, and my provider didn't even know how to get help. So what would be like, the other ideal things that you would see in the healthcare system?
Des:Well, one of the things we want to tackle is we want all hospitals armed with the information. And it's hard because so many women, there's so much information thrown at you at the hospital that it's like, I remember with my second baby, when I had the infection, uh, they gave me a packet of information and I'm not, we're not reading that. We don't have time. If we have any free minute, it's showering, eating or sleeping. And I remember like, When I was, I was so sick laying on the floor, and I'm trying to, turn sideways on the floor, trying to flip through the paperwork to see if I could find what degree of fever or temperature I should have before I go into the hospital. Like, it can't be in a discharge packet. It needs to be given in a way that's consumable, and that We can do it and on our time. So we're trying to figure out the best way to get that information to mom. And is that a, that a QR code that they scan? So they have it on their phone because we all have it at this point. You're going to be up at 2 AM. Is it that a social worker, that your birth triggers? or your experience. We give them a screener to see if they identify the traumatic delivery and then the information goes out that way. We're not quite sure the best way to do it, but because of these interviews that we have done, we've gotten so much wonderful feedback and we're continuing to do them. So if anybody has something they want to talk about, I'd love to keep going because we're just getting the information and finding all of that and saying, okay, here's what we're hearing. Here's what moms need. Here's what they can do. Here's what they can't do. And trying to address that before she even goes home would be great. Incredible because you shouldn't be scrolling at 2 a. m. It's doomsday scrolling, right? You're not in a great state of mind. Those online forums are full of trolls who they are. I mean, I've joined some that are wonderful and I joined them that are horrible how do you navigate that?
Joni:Like a birth trauma forum. Is that what you're talking
Des:Yes. I'm in several of them and some of them are just every man for themselves and some of them are really sweet and very kind, but those online forums are not where you should be getting your, your information. It should be coming from vetted sources who can put you in the direction that you need. I am for forums because we need that connection. I had my delivery it was today, July 17th, 2019, spring of 2020 hit and the whole world shut down. I mean, that was about the time that I started really struggling, but I was getting help, but it was so hard. That full year happened. And I joined an organization that is for maternal near miss survivors. And they had a conference in Texas and I debated like, do I go? I don't know. It's expensive. I don't know if I should do this. And I finally, like the last minute said, fine, I'll go. What's the worst that can happen? I get a weekend in Texas and I went and it was the first time I was with all these women who have survived horrific things. Well, I mean, multiple women with similar situations like mine, or, you know, AFE, which amniotic fluid embolisms, accretas, which is where the placenta adheres too deeply or through the uterine wall, which is, what happened to me. or. You know,
Joni:help syndrome.
Des:help syndrome. preeclampsia, women who've lost their babies. And I, I just remember walking into this room and because it was post COVID people were very nervous. There was not a lot of people. And I walked in this woman who is just this bright ray of sunshine. there's no other way to describe her. She walked in and hugged me and said welcome, you belong. they just understand your soul. It was just these women understood the heartache and everything that I needed. And we need that connection. And so forums can be wonderful, but that's another thing we want to do is we want to create that connection here. And in Utah, you shouldn't have to go to Texas to find somebody to see you. If we can create these opportunities for you to connect and feel seen and whatever happened in the delivery, even if it was actually a great delivery, we want to create those opportunities so that these moms. Because that's where it's hard. don't want women to feel isolated.
Joni:Yeah. What would those opportunities, what do you think would be like realistic? Looking like in Utah, a conference or like meetings, online support groups, what do you foresee being, or maybe you're still gathering information, but what would be beneficial?
Des:Honestly, I think it depends on the individual. So that's why we're trying to kind of do it all. You know, I have moms, one of the questions I ask in our interview is what would be the best way for you to access care or for it to find support? And I hear moms like, I want to be in person. I want to be with them. I want to see them. I want to sit with them. And some moms, which I get, are like, I have little kids. I don't have time. So if we could do virtually or if it could be recorded and I could find it later, we've talked about little webinars or support groups or hosting an online forum. I love the idea of a conference. I hadn't actually thought of that, but I'm definitely going to bring it back because if we could do that, I mean, that would be huge too. Way we can form a connection would be huge for these moms.
Joni:Like scholarships of people from rural areas so that
Des:Yeah.
Joni:stay. That'd be really cool. You should do that.
Des:it would be awesome. Okay. I never thought of that. And now I'm like, wait a minute. Why are we not doing that? Any way we can create connection, really, that's what it comes down to. And whatever way a mom can access that is the most important. We all come from very different lives and backgrounds and cultures, and it may look different for one mom to the other. And so, whatever we can do to create that space for them, I think
Joni:Yeah.
Des:what we would love to do.
Joni:And that would be under Department of Human Health and Services
Des:Yes.
Joni:Yeah and I think it's, it's always hard to start something but then if you have one thing that works and then you can get, I don't know, support coordinators who can start doing a virtual version or whatever. I think that would be incredible because it is such a common. story I hear, not yours specifically, but having a very difficult birth. I don't know from your data, what you've gathered, but it seems like the core of a lot of it is this like helplessness and this powerlessness. It could be traumatic because there was just poor communication and they felt powerless and they didn't know what to do. And I was surprised, I've said this before, but when I first started working, how many Things that medically sounded like, okay, everyone turned out okay, everyone was fine, that were devastating and very traumatic for the birthing partner or the non birthing partner seeing their baby struggle, seeing them struggle. I, I think there's so much room for, for more. Do you have, resources you like to refer people to right now?
Des:We have a few, they're, they're unofficial because they have to get, vetted through the state. So when people reach out to me and say, Hey, I just, this mother had this experience, I'm for sure going to tell her something. I'm not going to. Like, oh, I can't share it with you. I just say, okay, this is my opinion. And so I, I share what I think is important. I love postpartum support International. I always like, hey, PSI is really great. I always refer them to the foundation of whatever their condition was, if there is one. because there's a lot of support there. From the data that we've collected, every mom wants connection and validation. And education comes up as well, but we want connection. We want validation. And so if I can connect you to your foundation. And you can find other moms who've also experienced this condition, then you're not alone. And I recognize I don't have everyone's experience. So I really use those foundations to say, I can't help you. I don't know what that is like, but these women are incredible. And I've got these really incredible relationships with some of these foundations where I know that these women are just, they'll just envelope you in love. Like they are waiting for you to come. One of the, really, the best thing about our job, or my job is, after I do these interviews, about half of these moms will come back to me and say, either that day or on the phone or within a week or two, they'll come back and say, I don't, think I realized how badly I needed to tell my story. Thank you. Like, I feel lighter. I feel better. This is the first time I feel hope of just that. It's going to be okay. What we're kind of finding is maybe we just keep listening and maybe that's the most important part is we just keep moving forward and letting them, letting them share their story. Cause there's so much power in your personal story.
Joni:That's really powerful. I imagine for some people, like, if you are well connected and you have good people in your life, they can be that for them. And maybe those are the people who do better or they don't develop PTSD, or they have a therapist they can already talk to. But yeah, I think that listening, I definitely feel like I, I undervalue that sometimes as a therapist, just like letting them tell the story. And it's why I do such long intakes is because they want to tell the story and they've been waiting to tell all of it. Whether it's their birth trauma or their life story or what's been going on recently, stressors in their life, marriage, moving, job, there is such power in just being heard.
Des:yeah.
Joni:yeah. And at the end of appointments, I'm like, how are you feeling? And they're like, good.
Des:Yeah.
Joni:it, but it's like, Oh, it's so nice to just get to talk it out for a while.
Des:I see that lightness on them. I can feel like you can just see the, the weight come off. And I remember. I mean. We're all different, but I remember with, with my birth trauma, you know, I'd be in the grocery store and someone would be like, Oh, cute baby. Thanks. I died. I was compulsively telling everybody like all of the details because I just wanted someone to know. So if we can create that, so that we're not oversharing in a grocery store line, if we can create those like safe spaces for her to be heard, that is, is really powerful.
Joni:Well, I, I'm excited to see what you guys do. So you are still accepting stories. That's
Des:Absolutely. I will listen to anybody who wants to talk to me and it is a safe place. It's just a conversation for you to just be heard and it's really wonderful. It's always about the person who's being interviewed. I very rarely share my story, not because or I don't want it to be shared. It's not my time. I want to hear you. I want to hear what you want to tell me and I want to hear. Where you are.
Joni:Yeah, I love that. Would you mind if I put your email in the show
Des:Oh, please.
Joni:reach out?
Des:Yeah, please.
Joni:And you're only interviewing people who live in Utah, I'm guessing, right?
Des:Yes, or if they've had a, you know, I've had moms who don't live in Utah anymore, but they had a delivery that affected them while they were in Utah. and honestly, even I would do it if you didn't live in Utah, you just needed to be heard. it wouldn't count towards our data, but if you just need to talk. I'm here.
Joni:I love that. is there anything else you wanted to share or talk about before we kind of wrap up?
Des:It's been a long journey. If I could say one thing to anybody, it would be, it gets better you will be happy again it can be really great. And this experience for me has turned into. it changed the course of my life, you know, I was in education before am in public health now, but it's really empowering for me and very healing to sit with other women and to be with them and just know that they're not alone and that honestly that we love them and that they're okay.
Joni:Yeah, it sounds like you've been able to make meaning out of such an awful experience. And, that can bring some real healing, too,
Des:Yeah,
Joni:all the work you've done.
Des:yeah,
Joni:well, I appreciate you sharing the gory details
Des:I always have to preface with people like, Hey, trigger warning, it's a lot of blood. If you don't do blood, you might not want to hear about the
Joni:Pfft.
Des:I had multiple visits after, and I would go into the doctor and be like, Hey, cool new shoes. And he's like, yeah, I had to get new ones. And it's like, Oh, sorry. But some people don't do blood. So I always like have to kind of, Hey, fair warning. There's a lot of it,
Joni:Yeah, I hope most people are able to listen because I feel like your experience is very powerful, but then also what you've done with it is really cool. And gosh, I hope Utah gets better and better because people love babies here. So we need to take care of the people who are
Des:We do, yeah. And I have a lot of, a lot of hope in the direction that we're going. They are aware of the problem and we want to make change. It might take time. We're a very small group of, of other really fantastic women that we're trying. And we're slowly getting there. It's gaining traction and doctors really want to hear and I've had really great experiences as we've talked to hospitals and providers and they are just as excited about what we're doing as we are.
Joni:Oh, that's amazing. I'm glad to hear it. I think that that's been my experience too, is people want to learn, but they have a lot of things to learn. And so. It's helpful if we can kind of bring that information to them, just like the patients need to be educated, the providers need to be educated, and so it can be really helpful to be able to talk to them one on one and then they can do a better job in that area of their practice.
Des:Yeah. Most of the time, if I say I have some ideas. They're like, great. Please give us a solution. We recognize the problem. We want to know how to fix it as well. So most of the time they want to hear and listen.
Joni:Yeah. That disconnect between provider and information and getting the patient to it is just one that we talk about all the time and, getting the provider the information and the provider knowing where to send them.
Des:Yes.
Joni:that is like, if, if we could somehow solve that,
Des:Yeah. And.
Joni:I don't know what it would do,
Des:And even more than that, giving the provider information and helping them know she needs a warm handoff. This can't just be here's a paper. Good luck. There needs to be some follow up. And whether that's their office or it's. hospitals or it's ours at the state. We're not sure yet, but we want to make sure that she gets found and not lost in the system.
Joni:That's a great point. That is something I've come up against when I've done these presentations for PSI's. They're like, oh, we have papers we give them. And I'm like, cool, that's not doing it.
Des:Yeah.
Joni:I mean, I don't say it in that way, but I'm like, okay, but like, if you can just point them to a specific place, maybe get on the phone with them or get on the app with them. Like the maternalmentalhealth. utah. gov is what I always tell people about. Can we just like open up the website and then maybe have them look at it a little bit so that we can. just take it one step further, and I know that takes another two minutes, and you don't have time, no one has time, but that actually is going to, like, make the biggest difference.
Des:Yeah. You're better than I am because when they say, Oh, we have these, I'm like, we're not reading it. That's great. We're not looking at it. So how do we find it? One of the things we want to make sure is that however we make it, it's digestible. So if you're looking at a list of information, you've already lost her. So if we can just even make it more simplified so that when she's in those moments, because we're in the trenches, if we can make it easier and more accessible, the better. click here. If you feel this way. And here's a list of things. So it's no longer just a list of 20 people and you're like too much. I can't,
Joni:that's a good point. that was, I mean, now I'm kind of getting off, but this is why I wanted to do an Instagram version. And so I'm like, that's where people are. They're on TikTok and Instagram, but it's still like hard to get it in front of the right people because I mean, when I tell people what to do, they're like, oh, that's cool. If they've been diagnosed, they're like, oh, I had postpartum such and such or perinatal or whatever. But if they haven't, they don't know me, so they don't really want to talk about it. You have to catch them in those two o'clock moments when they're looking at their phone and they see a video of like, oh, that's me. I should ask you for ideas of what would be a precise way to catch someone's attention to get them to like, learn more because we just don't have the same attention span and you're right. We're not looking at the papers. But we're looking at our phones. It needs to be on the phone. or a person coming and talking to them, because that's like really the only way that I get information right now is like podcasts, social media, a person. That's like the primary ways.
Des:Yeah, and it needs to grab your attention pretty quickly because if it's not, I'm gonna scroll on by.
Joni:Yes. Yes. Yeah. Oh, man. Well, thank you so much. This has been so great.
Des:Oh, good. Thank you so much for the opportunity. It was awesome.
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