50. Demystifying Sex Therapy with Alex Brown, LCSW

In this episode of the Sad Moms Club, we talk to certified sex therapist and LCSW Alex Brown. She emphasizes the significance of open communication, assertiveness, and embracing pleasure in sexual relationships. The discussion also covers practical topics like dealing with differences in sexual desire, postpartum challenges, and the importance of prioritizing intimacy. Alex provides valuable insights into tools like sensate focus and educates listeners on breaking negative sexual narratives.

If you'd like to work with Alex, click here for her website and here for her Psychology Today profile.

Books she recommends:

• Shameless Parenting by Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers
• Becoming Cliterate by Dr. Laurie Mintz, Ph.D
• Come Together: The Science (and Art!) of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections by Emily Nagoksi Ph.D. 

Podcast episodes she recommends:

• Come As You Are: Emily Nagoski
• Pillow Talks by Vanessa and Xander Marin

These are specific Pillow Talks episodes that Alex shares with her clients often:

• Episode 12: How to Let Your Partner Love Your Body - Even If You Don't
• Episode 13: How to Handle Rejection When Your Partner Says No To Sex
• Episode 17: How to Allow Yourself To Receive In The Bedroom
• Episode 146: Are You Nagging? Or Is Your Partner Being Childish?

Follow along on The Sad Moms Club's Instagram: @the.sad.moms.club

Transcript

Joni: 0:00

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Sad Moms Club. It has been a minute. I don't actually even know the last time I put out an episode. I've had a few episodes recorded, but I have not been doing great. I try to add some and then if I feel sick, I just, I've tried to take off that burden. From myself. So yeah, the last episode was over a month ago. Was Des Ferrin's birth trauma story. So I have three episodes that are already recorded that I just had like edit and put out. And I'm trying to do that before I have this little baby. If you're wondering how I'm doing with during pregnancy. It's really hard because I wanted this, so, so, so bad. And I'm so excited to have this baby. And pregnancy has been really hard, oh yesterday I was crying. About how uncomfortable I am. And how tired I am of feeling sick and how. Different. My life has been this summer. Like I'm a pretty active person. I like to hike. I like to go to the gym. I like to. Just like, go, go, go, go, go. And I just literally can't do that because if I try to do that, I will be sick. So. It's been a beat down this last, especially these last couple months. Feeling really sick every day. Because I thought it was kind of out of that. Time. I had like probably eight weeks of. Relief I didn't feel great, but I was able to do more and I'd like go to the gym. But now I, I really feel like pretty limited. I can't really do anything. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's this weird juxtaposition of I've spent years. Hoping for praying for. And doing everything. We can to have this child and this pregnancy has been so hard for me and I've hated it. And so it's really a good practice. And being able to use those dialectics of, I want this child and I hate pregnancy. I. Love that I was able to get pregnant with IVF. I feel so lucky. And I cannot wait till it is over. I am just excited to not be nauseous and, and. And feel like I will have to vomit every single day. And a few short weeks. Anyways. Thanks for still listening, even though it's been super sporadic and I really want to try to keep doing this after we have a kid, but I am a little concerned. About finding the time to edit these.'cause I already hate it so much, and this is just like a passion project. So if you have any ideas of how to do it, Maybe I just shouldn't edit them at all, but they sound so much clear. If I do anyways, this is inside my brain, but. Today, we're talking to Alex Brown. I met Alex when I was at serenity as a student. And she started the recovery and wellness is moms. Therapy group office and. Even then when I was talking to Alex, she's like, I want to do sex therapy. So that's what we talk about today what she does with individuals and couples in terms of sex therapy, she is officially a sect certified. That's a S E S S E C T. And she explains what that means. Throughout the episode, but when we recorded, she'd submitted the paperwork and then she wanted to wait for me. To release it until she was actually AASECT certified. So congratulations to Alex, really exciting for her. She started her own practice within this last year. I believe. And I've already started sending people her way, so really recommend her. And if you are a person who is a sexual beings, so that's everybody I think this would be a really helpful episode. It's not just what is sex therapy, but I think you'll walk away from the episode. With sex therapy, a bit more demystified. And understanding. What you can do about it and some resources. Definitely recommend listening outside up jabbering. Okay. Let's get started.

4:07

Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club.

Joni: 4:17

All right we can just jump in. I'll just say I met Alex when I was an intern at Serenity. three years ago now? Yeah, it was in 2021. And she was, you were getting AASECT certified, I think at the time you were like starting that process. Are you officially like done with it?

Alex: 4:35

I'm just waiting to hear back. I've submitted my application and I was hoping to hear back this week, but the conference is this week. So no one's in office doing anything. They're all in St. Louis in trainings.

Joni: 4:46

Gotcha. yeah, it's like a serious certification that you have to, it's

Alex: 4:51

yeah,

Joni: 4:51

But, let's start with your story of why you were interested in sex therapy in the first place.

Alex: 4:57

Totally. When I went to college, my original plan was to open a bakery. Then I did one business class, one semester, and I was like, no, I hate this. Then I switched to L. Ed, elementary education, passed the praxis and everything and I was like, no, I don't think I want to do this either. And then I switched into human development and stuff like that. And I had a roommate in college that we lived together for the year and we got chatting one night and she was telling me a little bit about This thing that she had gone through just like the summer before she and her sister both had this just, I don't know if it's like an official disorder, but essentially her and her sister, both their hymens were intact, like completely intact. So when she started having her period, hers was like, a tiny hole, like it was the tiniest hole, so she was barely releasing any of her uterine lining or anything, and when she tried to put in a tampon, it was so painful, and so she was like, this is so weird, she just wouldn't use them, and they couldn't really figure out what's going on, she had really painful period, she would get sick, and they were just like, what is going on? So then her sister started going through puberty, so And she was super sick. She couldn't even get a tampon in because hers was completely intact. Her sister had to go and have it surgically opened And they removed a pint out of her uterus of uterine lining and they were like, yeah And they told her if this had gotten any fuller You could have died like you could have gotten a serious infection and died. So when they found this in her sister, then I was like, Oh my gosh, yours is almost completely intact as well. So she had to have her surgically opened also. And so both of them had a lot of scar tissue from these surgeries. And so when she, when we were in college, she met her now husband. And to that point, she had still never used a tampon. She was so terrified to use it cause it hurts so much. And so when she was engaged, she was like telling me like, I'm so nervous. I still can't even use a tampon. How am I supposed to have sex with my husband? And at this point, she's LDS. Yes. Her mom was definitely more open for an LDS mom but I don't remember if it was her aunt or her husband's aunt, but they gifted them six or seven sessions with a sex therapist for their bridal shower. And so they went together. And they did some anatomy lessons, like some psychoeducation sessions. She helped her figure out how to use dilators and how to dilate her vaginal canal so that her scarring wouldn't be as painful, showed her how to massage her scarring tissue as well. And so she went on her honeymoon, she came back and she was like, Alex, it didn't hurt like at all. Like I thought I was going to feel so much pain and it was great. And I remember her husband was like, those sessions were so cool. And so they're telling me about that. And I was like, That's what I want to do. I want to help people in that way. And I just like, what a cool gift, by the way, for a, an aunt, especially from two very LDS families. It was like, I think you guys should have this. And the fact that they both went together as well, because I could see some people getting that and being meh. I don't want to use that,

Joni: 8:06

Yeah. I'm actually surprised that they both were willing to go together. I feel like that would be something, if they both never had sex before, pretty uncomfortable around the topic and being willing to go to sex therapy prior to having sex. It's just like, the stars kind of Aligned for them. I'm

Alex: 8:21

Yeah, they were both open about it. He was such a good guy and he was also like, I don't want you to hurt. I don't want to be the cause of your pain either. And being able to even talk about it together as a couple, they were able to talk about okay, maybe we don't have to have it on our wedding night. It's okay that we don't have sex on our wedding night if we're exhausted from our wedding and all these things like it's okay if we wait till the next day right rather than this pressure of it's your wedding night. You guys better be doing what we think you're doing right like what a silly expectation. So then being able to talk about that as well of we don't have to follow these standards that. society. I just have thought about that for so long. I actually don't even know if she realizes I need to tell her, like you're actually a big part of why this is the field that I've gotten into. I don't know if she actually knows that. But and I had a mom too that was also super open. I've told clients before, like my mom was the mom that would have more sex talks with my friends than anyone else. And some of my friends were like, I never got any sort of talk. The most I got was from your mom. And I was like, Oh, that's, 15 year old Alex is that's so embarrassing. But now I'm like,

Joni: 9:26

Go mom!

Alex: 9:27

I, know. I love that she did that. And when I started grad school day one, I was like, I'm going to do sex therapy. That's what I want to do. And so everyone in my program knew I was the person that was my trajectory.

Joni: 9:38

Where did you go to school at?

Alex: 9:40

the you,

Joni: 9:40

Okay, and so did you. do internships with sex thera like, related to sex therapy at all?

Alex: 9:46

I wanted to I wanted to actually get on with the healing group, but they weren't taking interns that year. I was able to take human sexuality from Braxton and Kristen Hodson and Braxton Dutson.

Joni: 9:58

I don't know who Braxton is. I know who

Alex: 10:00

He's over at the healing group. He's one of the main therapists over there. I don't know if he's like a manager or what, but supervises interns. He was my primary supervisor for sex therapy. He's awesome. So I took class from them and they also knew like that was where I was planning to go. So once I graduated, took some time off. graduated in 2020 in the midst of a global pandemic. So starting your career is a weird spot in a global pandemic. But once I felt ready, I was like, okay, we're jumping into the AASECT stuff. Cause it's, yeah, it's essentially like another master's degree. Pretty much.

Joni: 10:34

Yeah. what all do you have to do? Can you explain what AASECT is for someone who doesn't know what it is, and then talk about what that training looks like?

Alex: 10:41

Yes. So AASECT is the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapists. It's this national organization where we get like fully certified for sex therapy. Because anyone can call themselves a sex therapist, but not everyone is a certified sex therapist. So I've had to do 90 hours of just like core education, anatomy, medication, stuff like that. 60 hours of sex therapy trainings, interventions, modalities, methods. I had to have 50 hours of supervision, individual and group supervision membership with AASECT I'm a member of the community and then 300 hours with clients, direct client sex therapy sessions.

Joni: 11:28

Oh, so the supervision is like meeting with a supervisor,

Alex: 11:31

Yes. Yep. Yep. So Braxton was my primary, he and I met. least 25 of our sessions were one on one of just making sure that I was, you know, utilizing proper techniques, not causing harm, some of that stuff. So it's hefty. The shortest that you can do it is 18 months, but most people go longer because you're paying for supervision. That can get really pricey.

Joni: 11:54

Well, and you're paying for all those courses you're doing, right?

Alex: 11:58

I was able to count, I could count. My human sexuality course from my undergrad. So a lot of that went towards, but yes, you're paying for your trainings as well.

Joni: 12:07

Are the courses through AASECT, or do you have to like, find your own courses? Just curious.

Alex: 12:14

can do both. You can do both. So if they are a non-AASECT approved training, it's just worth half the amount of credits. So I did a training through, the Cognitive Behavior Institute. And they were two credits. So I got two CEs. But for AASECT, I only got one

Joni: 12:31

Yeah. I think it's helpful to know everything you have to go through to become certified, or even just knowing that your therapist is going through that process. They're going to have a lot more education to pull from and tools to pull from. They have a supervisor that they can ask. And then also I think just the nature of supervision, you get a little bit more connected to the community. So you have more people to talk to about cases with instead of just I could say I'm a sex therapist. yeah, I'm not, but I could say it and not know what I'm doing. So there's a lot of value in that education.

Alex: 13:01

Yeah, definitely. And I, yeah, I would hope that most therapists feel comfortable bringing up sex a little bit with their clients. We are just going to go a little bit deeper. We're not going to. This be as uncomfortable. Sometimes I'll have clients that are like this might be TMI. And I was like, I'm a sex therapist. There's no such thing as TMI for me as a sex therapist. Your TMI is what I want to know. So I'm ready for you to go there if you feel ready to go there.

Joni: 13:27

Yeah. Yeah. I think that kind of touches on something that I feel like should be addressed when talking about Sex therapy is This is a scary thing for a lot of people to embark on. So even get to you? It must be like in, in some situations, pretty difficult for them to be like, okay, we have to go see somebody. How do people get to you? And like, how do they overcome that nervousness and embarrassment, or how do you help them overcome it? Cause I'm guessing it's partially you.

Alex: 13:56

Yeah. I kind of see like two directions a little bit, whether it's individuals or couples. Cause I do a combo of individuals and couples with individuals. Part of our sex therapy training, just like, bring it up often, right? Like we can help create comfortability around the topic. If we just like casually bring it up and like, Oh yeah. And if you're having sex with your partner and this happens I can still relate it to things. And so what I have. Individuals, I'm usually bringing it up in the first or second session, just to know like this topic is on the table because it's my specialty and it's my jam and I want to talk about it. With couples, if they're coming to me, I think the biggest one is differences in desire, right? So you have one partner that wants it a lot and you have one partner that doesn't and that, that doesn't matter, male, female, same sex. I've actually told people as of late, a lot of my clients the woman is the high drive and the man is the low drive. And they struggle with that because the woman feels like there's something wrong with themselves, right? Like, why do I want it so much? What's wrong with me that I'm so hypersexual and my husband isn't? And the husband's what's wrong with me? My masculinity is at risk here because I don't want sex all the time because we've heard this silly narrative that's how it's supposed to be, right? So it's a lot of that. Being a part of the Perinatal world postpartum, like I have couples that are trying to navigate how to bring sex back into the marriage after how do they embrace sexuality as parents? How do they talk about it? that's such a big thing to most of my couples come in originally for communication and I'm like, okay if you can't even communicate about chores around the house. You're definitely not communicating about sex the way you want to be and it just overlaps So sometimes if they come in just for sex We very much go into couples work and communication because I'm like sex is just the tip of the iceberg for me It's usually if we get underneath there's a lot of other stuff going on

Joni: 15:53

Yeah. Definitely. Do you feel like people over time become more comfortable with it? Like really nervous at first, but then as they get to know you, they're able to talk about it a little bit more.

Alex: 16:04

Yeah, definitely

Joni: 16:06

Kind of that exposure.

Alex: 16:08

little bit. Yeah, we joked that sex therapy and in its own is kind of exposure therapy whether it's individuals and couples as well, shame is so big within sexuality. Not being sexual enough, being too sexual feeling shame of wanting certain things in the bedroom and not being able to tell their partner that and just trying to normalize. people's sexual wants and desires, because there's a whole bunch of them. And my guess is if you have it, you're not the first person that came up with that desire. There's usually a whole community out there that also likes the same thing as you. And so if they can get to this place of, talking about some of these things with a therapist. Like, how do we then put that into your relationships? Whether they're in a relationship or not because I've got some people that see me and they're individual They're single but they want to figure out how to start dating they want to figure out how to be sexual in their dating life and Not be shameful around it and shame definitely is going to impact communication, right? If I'm feeling shame of oh say I like, rope play But I'm afraid and shameful of it and I'm afraid to tell my partner That's never going to happen. So what if in a session, sometimes that's what I'm doing with couples. Tell me what are some of your desires in the bedroom? And don't just tell me, tell them, right? Turn and look at each other. I would love to try this and I could see that's really hard to tell for you to tell me that and thank you for telling me right like trying to practice those validation skills because it's, it is scary, like it's just, we've been told that It's private. We've been told I'm even going to use the word sacred, right? Because I think sometimes we're told it's sacred. And whether it's the intent or not, the impact for some people is shame rather than sacredness. I think just over time yeah, the exposure of I'm going to talk about stuff. I'm going to be comfortable with it. I try and have really like comfortable body language with my clients to not show them that I'm uncomfortable because it helps them. Be comfortable with it too.

Joni: 18:02

Yeah, definitely. That makes a huge difference. I am curious as you've been talking, it seems like sex therapy is a symptom sometimes of a much larger problem. So not being able to communicate, some deep shame. So how much of sex therapy, and I know it's case by case, is it actually talking about sex and how much of it is talking more about these other aspects that are contributing to the problem?

Alex: 18:28

like that question. The actual like act of sex and intercourse is probably like five to ten percent

Joni: 18:35

Okay. Yeah.

Alex: 18:36

truly because that's such a small part of sex, right? But when I really, when I get into it with my couples, we are more so doing yeah, that communication piece connection and intimacy work, right? Because to me, intimacy versus sex are different and they can exist without each other and they can exist together. together, like sex if it's a very intimate context, we might label that more as like lovemaking, right? It's passionate. We're connected with our partner. Whereas sex without intimacy might be a good screw, right? And it's just like rough. It just, it's quick. It just happens. And that doesn't mean it can't still be intimate, but the type of intimacy with lovemaking is different than with a good screw. And so I think It's pretty like a small amount I would say of actually talking about sex. It's more so how do you talk about it? Something that I've done more with my couples as of late, Which I've I think has been helpful for a lot of them and for people as well Like most people when they talk about sex It's when it's a problem or when it's not going the way they want it to that's why they're coming in a couple's therapy. Oh, we're not having the kind of sex we want We're not having enough of it. I want more of this You are not doing that and I sometimes pose the question of my couples like when was the last time that you asked or even just talked about hey Remember that time that we had sex in the shower? Up at that hotel. That was so fun, right? And just reflecting on like fun stuff But why is it always in the context of oh, this is a problem we need to address

Joni: 20:06

Yeah, that's not fun to talk about. I think about like when you like reminisce as a couple like, Oh, remember when this was like, we were first dating or this great trip we went on. It can make me feel closer to my partner. I'm like, Oh yeah, we've had some really, like really good times. So that's interesting to reflect and reminisce about good sexual experiences instead of just problematic ones.

Alex: 20:31

yeah, and try not to compare either because some people go into this route of we were having so much good sex before what happened or we were having it so much more frequently before what's changed, again, there's still this like kind of negative view of it, where it is natural that our sex lives are going to ebb and flow. When you first move in together, and it's free game. It's yeah, we're going to have sex in every room of the house because this is fun and exciting. But then you get a job, you both are working, or maybe one of you is working, or you're in school, you add kids it's not that sex still isn't a priority. It's just There's a lot of other priorities also on your plate. So it's trying not to compare either of, our sex was so much better before, why is it not anymore? If that makes

Joni: 21:13

Yeah, definitely. Oh, that's really. an interesting way to talk about it and definitely not something that's common. Okay, so I guess I want someone to walk away from this episode feeling like they've learned some things. Hopefully they already have, but what are some really specific things that you find when you teach your clients? It really changes the way that they're viewing themselves, sex, their partner. Like, what are those things that you go over with almost every client?

Alex: 21:43

Obviously communication is important. Big, but that's such a big word too, right? That's very broad. I think particularly a lot of the work that I've done the most, especially with kind of my postpartum moms is assertiveness, and for both partners. I want both partners to be able to assertively ask and make a request for sex. I want both partners to be able to assertively say, Not right now, or to say that feels good. Do more of that. Or, ooh, that kind of feels weird. Can we move positions. Of just being comfortable, of just talking about it. Even like during the act of actually having sex, I'm like, do you guys talk while you're having sex? And they're like, no. Talk about what I'm like, so no, that's a no you're not talking about it, right? i'll have them do that I'm, like tell me like no you're kind of beating around the bush. What do you want? What's the want? What's the need? And having them say it in session then i'm like again, don't look at me Look at him. Look at her right? Like i'm not the person you're asking for. I want you to ask your partner because it's scary to ask for what we want because a lot of times people are afraid of You What if they say no? What if they're mad at me,

Joni: 22:51

judgmental, like, oh, that's weird.

Alex: 22:54

Mm-Hmm. and some of those fears push people then to, what we definitely wanna avoid in a relationship is that sex that feels obligated. We don't want obligated sex because it really does kill connection. Pleasure intimacy. Again, a lot of my postpartum moms, they'll do it'cause they're like, ah, you just, I know that's what he wants, so I'm just gonna do it. I'm like, okay. But. What is that doing for you? We have to find this place. I have found more often than not that the men that I work with or the non birthing partner that I work with, they would rather their partner want to be there than to have sex with someone who doesn't really want to be there and be present. But to be able to like assertively say that feels good. Oh, let's turn around. I want to face this way. Hey, do you want to have sex tonight? Just being open rather than what do you, what are you doing later? Just say what you want. Cause I think for most humans, we are really attracted to confidence and assertiveness is confident. When we're like, I like that. Let's do that again. whatever that assertiveness can look like. So I think that's a really big one that I try and do a lot with. And it's not just women either. It's my male clients as well. It's okay to ask her and how do we tolerate saying no to each other as well? Cause we got to have space for that in a relationship and that's part of assertiveness,

Joni: 24:09

Can we talk about those two things? So, Like, how do you teach assertiveness outside of having them do it in session I think is great say it to your partner, but that doesn't necessarily mean it translates to, outside of their session. And then, how do you make space for no and not feeling personally rejected but being okay with them having their own needs and them being different than your own?

Alex: 24:29

With the first part with assertiveness, I think it's looking at where else is assertive communication probably already showing up in their lives, If I have someone, regardless of which partner it is, how do you show up at work? Do you feel like you're pretty assertive at work? How is your communication at work? And having them see, oh, okay, yeah, I think I am pretty assertive here. I'm pretty assertive with my parents, or I'm pretty assertive with my friends, or I'm assertive with my kids. Wherever they can find that assertiveness, it's like, okay, that's good. So you have this foundation for it. But sometimes people don't even have that. We sometimes have to unpack like, is it passive communication? Is it passive aggressive? Is it fearful communication, right? Being so fearful of taking up space, having needs and wants, not wanting to make anyone else around them uncomfortable or unhappy, so seeing like what their communication looks like across the board, because we can be, certain types of communicators in different settings. I don't know. Maybe this is just like my own personal opinion, but I think if we can show these skills in other places, it shows that we're able to apply it in the bedroom, right? Or with a sexual relationship. So that's where I think I sometimes try and say like, where else, what else does your communication look like? We often look at my clients and I will look at like how their own parents communicated, right? Cause I always say we pull from what we know. I love my parents, they're amazing. And I know now as an adult, they did not talk about a lot of stuff. It was swept under the table. And that we have found is not actually helpful. We don't want to have fights all the time, but conflict is going to happen in a marriage. So how. How are you handling conflict because if there can be assertiveness in conflict as well as, repair attempts, accountability you can move through that easier. Then we apply it to a sexual context and you've really got that skill set. If they can work through conflict, We apply it to sex and it's so good, right? It just says the strongest skills that you can have. Now with the no, that's a good one. I think I'm still working on it with a lot of people.

Joni: 26:25

that's fair. You can't tell someone not to be offended. Like you might feel like, oh gosh, I am being personally rejected right now. But also like consent is, so important and so being able to like, be recognized, they have their own consent, but this is still hard for me and validating them, validating yourself, it just,

Alex: 26:45

Yes,

Joni: 26:46

tricky spot

Alex: 26:47

Yeah, and I think probably need to bring in validation here, right? It's a big part of what I'm doing with all of my clients and couples within the sex context and just couples work, period. Because You Yeah, tolerating a no I would rather have people tell me no, because when they tell me yes, I know they mean it. I always give this example of, I have a really good friend of mine she is so good at saying no and saying yes when she means it. If I invite her to something and she doesn't want to go, she's eh, I don't want to go to that. I'm going to pass. And I used to say oh, come on just come with me. But now I'm like, sounds good. I'll see you for the next one. Because I know she doesn't want to be there. It has built trust in our relationship. And I think people don't understand that saying no and being able to respect a no, that builds up trust. Like when she says yes for the next event, I'm like, Oh, Laura wants to be there. I know that she means it. And I've appreciated that so much from her. So when we look at that with couples it's so hard. You're right. Because. Either couple on the receiving end of the no has to try and not personalize it. And that's not always going to happen, right? How can you not personalize it when your own partner is saying, no, I don't want to have sex. It feels like a personal rejection. And so sometimes what my work might be is, okay, you might be saying no to sex, but there was a bid for connection here. If we're looking at Gottman's work, putting out a bid for connection Sex is a way to do that, right? A lot of people put out a bid for sex and that's a way to connect. So it's, it's maybe having an alternative, I am not in the space for sex. Can we connect in a different way? And, opening up this conversation of not just no and shutting it down. There's a way to still turn towards that bid. Even with turning down the act of sex, and I think sometimes people have a hard time applying that and holding space for it a little bit or even trying to think Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. We can still connect in that way, even if it's not sex.

Joni: 28:39

I think some people don't feel like it's a bid for connection. They feel like it is, I want something physical right now and you are the person that I can do that with. I'm sure can be like a couple issue as well, like perhaps that is actually true but that's not always true,

Alex: 28:55

Yeah, and there needs to be a balance to have not saying no every single time.

Joni: 28:59

What I was just thinking is There's also room for compromise because like with your friend, Laura. She's your friend. If she says no 50 percent of the time or 75 percent of the time, you're like, cool. She's my friend that comes to 25 percent of things. That's fine. But like with Your partner, there is some expectation that there's like a little give and take in the relationship and not to like, be able to not sacrifice yourself for the sake of the, of the relationship. Relationship, but also giving some, so you can also, it's just it's really tricky. This is why I don't work

Alex: 29:28

It is See that's why I love this stuff like I love getting into it It is hard. I love my couples and it's hard. Like I won't sugarcoat it. I've got two people in front of me that I'm trying to validate and hold space for. I mean with that, depending on why the individual is saying no there can be a lot behind that. I, I sometimes have to dig in love. What's the note here? Sometimes it's pain, right? I've been able to unpack with some people. I'm like, wait, you're having pain every time you're having sex. That's not normal. That shouldn't be happening. Pain is an indicator that maybe something is off. So sometimes as sex therapists, we are going to connect with GPs or pelvic floor therapists or other providers that have a sexuality specialty to rule out I can only do so much work with a client if they have sexual pain that is based on a physical ailment, My roommate from college, she had scarring and she had these things that we could talk about that all day long. But until she gets that address physically. There's only so much that we can do. So sometimes I need to know what the no is, right? What else is going on? I've had some couples, and I think this is my postpartum moms, they're recovering from a birth, right? And depending on that birth, I've worked with some couples who've had some really traumatic births and to get back to having sex after traumatic birth is so scary. It's so vulnerable. And I think their partners too were like, I don't want to like add to their trauma in any way. It becomes this like tiptoe. So the safest thing to do is to say no. But in reality, what that does is it slowly increases anxiety. Because then when you finally do have sex, I've got clients who are like tense and it's just like this. this scary thing. So depending on the note, with some of those things I use and this is like a bread and butter of sex therapists. A lot of sex therapists are going to get trained in this. And some of my clients are going to know what this is because I've worked on it with them. It's called Sensate Focus, Sensation, Sensate Focus. So the goal is to take out the expectation of sex. When sensate focus is happening, it's a mindfulness exercise. So when it's happening, sex is off the table. It is explicitly off the table. And it has to be very clear with the partners. Like when you guys are doing sensate, it does not end in sex because what that does is it takes away pressure. It takes away, like that tenseness. But It's a give and take of touch is all it is. And there's different stages of it. This is going to be such a simplified version. We have different stages where stage one is just touch of like upper body, no genitals, no chest either. And it's just, you give touch for five minutes and then you receive touch for five minutes. And the goal while you're giving and receiving is to be mindful, is to notice when you're the one receiving touch, what are you noticing? Is the sensation is it light? Is it heavy? Is it scratching? Like trying to engage in those mindfulness skills of not trying to add judgment or, ooh, I like this or, ooh, I don't like this. Just labeling the sensation and noticing what's going on in your body too. For my clients that are fearful of pain or that experience what's known as that bristle response, right? That tenseness, I want them to notice. And try and be as compassionate and non judgmental with that, but just notice if that's coming up. And same with giving touch. What are you noticing as the partner that's giving touch? Is your partner's skin cool to the touch? Is it warm? Are there goosebumps? Trying to notice these things that you're feeling and over time you're going to add to the touch. So I have partners work up through the phases of this of starting with those kind of the safe stuff of like arms, upper back, shoulders, head. You eventually move on to like lower body, legs, Your butt like eventually genitals, but no penetration and then eventually you move into penetration and it's like this ongoing process, but again, the goal is mindfulness and Another big part of our work is sex therapist is pleasure that the goal isn't orgasm. The goal isn't the time or whatever. The goal is hopefully pleasure because that's really what we want out of our intimacy is that it's pleasurable, and I'm not just talking sexual pleasure, like I'm talking pleasure of any kind, like when you put on your favorite Blanket and you wrap up in it. That's a form of pleasure, right? My first sip of coffee in the morning, Oh, that's like pleasure, Trying to embrace more of that without the expectation of penetrative sex And so some of my couples it's a hard skill to do. I have to find this balance with them too. If I can't have one partner that's like overly excited to do Sense8 and they're like, we need to do Sense8. We haven't done it. Whereas the partner over here is I'm still even anxious about Sense8, right? We have to find balance, validation. What's the function of doing Sense8? Is it because you want to connect or is it because you have a different agenda. And trying to be honest with ourselves as the partner, if we do have an agenda are we hoping that this ends in sex? You can hope that we can validate that hope and there's a boundary the answer is no. So hopefully over time what I want to see from clients that are doing this consistently is that sometimes the no can be, you know what, maybe not sex. Can we do sensate instead right now? I'm like, great. With the goal to get sex back to their relationship. Because really this is a hard thing I think for some people to hear, especially my clients are like, I could go without sex for the rest of my life. There are some people that feel that way. You have asexual individuals who are like, If you are chosen to be married to someone, you're monogamous and you're committed to each other. You need to prioritize sex in whatever way that looks like in your relationship. And this comes from, I know that on your episode with Monica, she talked about Come As You Are. Most people are pretty familiar with that book. We love that book. Emily released another new one this year. It came out in January or February, end of January, I think, and it's called Come together.

Joni: 35:11

Oh.

Alex: 35:12

So good. It's so good. And I've been encouraging my couples to start buying it and reading it together because it's for couples in long term relationships to create a lasting sexual connection. And so she talks about the three things that couples need to make that happen. It's that they prioritize sex. They decide it's important to their marriage. They're friends, so they trust and admire each other. And then three They don't apply standards to their relationship and their sex life of what other people are telling them. They're creating a sex life that works for them so that at that point, those three things help clients and couples co create pleasure together,

Joni: 35:50

Hmm. Yeah, I had a thought when you were, oh, you said some of your patients don't like when you're like, you have to prioritize this. You could maybe go without sex forever, you've chosen this. And so that sounds like a really, that could be a really sticky conversation with like consent really but I don't want to. But then I get what you're saying, there's this agreement that's you've chosen to be monogamous, so are you okay with non-monogamy. Are you okay with an open relationship? What does that mean or are you okay with divorce?

Alex: 36:21

It's so hard and I, and really I think I've found this with many of my clients and I would say even like for myself, like something as a sex therapist that I always have to work on. Again, a lot of people are probably familiar with that gas and brakes metaphor. I think Monica talked about that as well on the podcast of like gas pedal is what gets you in the mood. Brake pedal is what gets you out of the mood. As a sex therapist, my brakes are on all the time is what I've noticed for myself. I'm having a lot of sexual conversations and I would prefer to not be aroused in session. And does it happen sometimes because I'm a normal human being and my body parts are working? Absolutely. And so I think so many clients too, like the breaks are slammed all the time and being curious with like, why? Cause you're right. It is sticky. I don't want my clients to get to that place of obligated sex because that's not helpful for their relationship either. I would rather them not have sex and. Keep it off the table for a while to then get to a place eventually they want to have this. And that's something in Emily's book, in Come Together that she actually talks about a lot. There's the two different types of desire that a lot of people are fairly familiar with spontaneous and responsive, right? Spontaneous is where it's like, whoop. Let's go. I'm ready, it's really easy to tap into those gas pedals, you're just rearing and ready to go Responsive is usually I need a little bit more to get going before. And I think Monica used this metaphor as well, but like going to a party, right? Like you go to a party I didn't really want to be here. And then over time, you're like, Oh, this is so fun. All my favorite people were here. Maybe you're exhausted after, maybe you're like charged up because it was so much fun. But in coming together, I want to read. Her definition of the two, because I think they're so good. Spontaneous desire emerges in anticipation of pleasure. Responsive desire emerges in response to pleasure. I love that separation. I think it's so helpful because pleasure is part of both. In the book, she says that responsive desire for long term committed relationships is important. It's more of an indicator of success than spontaneous. And the spontaneous is probably what we see in a lot of the beginning of relationships, right? We're hooking up all the time and it's just we're charged up all the time. And there's this anticipation of pleasure. If you're dating and living in different places, I've had people in long distance relationships, or if they're having sex and living in different places and then eventually move in together, but that anticipation of not seeing each other for a little while Ooh I'm ready, right? Like I haven't seen them for a while. Maybe I'm going to wear my favorite underwear or I'm going to shave my legs or whatever, right? Because I'm anticipating that this is going to happen. And then again, that comfortability of when we live together and move in with our partners we then have to respond to pleasure. So that's sometimes why Sense8 can be helpful because we're responding to the pleasure and we're being present with it. And sometimes I have clients that after they've done Sense8, the timeframe is up and maybe an hour later they have sex. That's fine. Because at that point, you've probably have your foot off the brake a little bit. You've responded to pleasure. It's feeling good. And you're like, I could do this. But it's so individualized to each couple. It's such a fine line. I just, I hope it's like not, I'm not saying like you have to be having sex in your relationship. It's you need to prioritize sex in your relationship in whatever way that looks like for each couple because that's going to be different for me and my husband and what it is for you and your husband, right? How we each prioritize it is going to be different and it's what works for us.

Joni: 39:35

Yeah. And I think also if, sometimes prioritizing is learning more and figuring out what is it that's going on in this relationship that's preventing us from connecting in that way. The sensate focus, I just have a few questions about that. If that's like your recommendation, is it okay for the next week you're only allowed to go this far, you're going to do it for this, like how prescriptive is it? And is it? And you said you can have sex after that period of time.

Alex: 39:59

Yeah.

Joni: 39:59

can never have sex, but

Alex: 40:00

yeah.

Joni: 40:01

How prescriptive are you,

Alex: 40:02

good question. For me, it depends on where the couple is at. Lately my couples, I've had one that's like, I'm fearful. I'm afraid to have sex. I want you to be doing sensei, almost like that exposure work, right? Of at least like two to three times. If you need to start small, like a minute. And then switch. I want you to build up to then five and then ten, right? And doing what works. And I'll have the couples gauge like if they're feeling ready to move on to the next step. I would rather them do that together because I've had some that are like, can one partner move on to the next and the other? I'm like, Again, that might depend on the couple for me, though, as well what's the function of one partner moving on and the other partner staying, because sometimes the function of staying in stage one is fear of moving on to the next stage, right? So I want to know a little bit of what's going on here. So it depends and I don't know how other sex therapists would feel about this, but typically there's no talking during Sense8, but I've had some clients that they never talk during sex, kind of go back to that assertiveness conversation. That I sometimes encourage some of my clients. I want you to say stuff. I want you to talk. I want you to moan. I want you to communicate that during sensate because you're afraid to do that during sex. And I'll tailor that a little bit, which is a little bit different than what they'll say in traditional like sensei focused training. I like to go rogue sometimes, so

Joni: 41:18

I think that makes sense. It's trying to practice couple skills at the same time. Do they find, your couples find that as they do sensate, they actually realize what is pleasurable for them? Like they're a little, they start learning like, Oh, it's this kind of touch is really helpful for me. And this kind of touch is not helpful. Because if it was always like going zero to 60, there may not have been as much awareness around what was enjoyable along the way.

Alex: 41:44

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. That quick, spontaneous sex doesn't often give us space to be bored. Present with pleasure. So the sensei definitely does that of some people might really like soft tickles, right? My husband I joke when we get massages. I'm like, I want like deep hardcore I want them to get in there and he's more of a back tickle kind of guy. That's what he likes so And for me, I'm like, ah, it's, I need a little bit firmer touch because it's just too soft for me. So yes, it's figuring out like what kind of touch do you like? Eventually when you move into farther phases are you a person that likes nipple play? Is that something that is stimulating and fun for you? Or are you like, no, that's not for me. Certain body parts, do those feel more pleasurable for you than others? Yes. The goal is to learn. And I think I do see that for clients that they're like, Oh, this kind of feels good. And the context is going to switch to, I've had some clients use different items. I had one in particular they bought some kit on Amazon and they found one that had a glove with like roller balls in the glove. And so they would do that on each other's backs and chest and stuff. I think one of them liked it more than the other. And there was like a set that was, almost like a mini flogger, like a, had the strings and everything, and they'd put it across their body and finding different items, just being creative with it. It's a fun way to just play around with it. So yes, finding different items. What is pleasurable? getting creative, trying differEnt things and learning. Yes. It really is like learning about our own body and being present with it. I think there's shame around being present in our body. Feeling pleasure in our body. I don't know if that just goes away. As we get older, but like I think about little kids and watching them experience the world and how there's no shame when it comes to them feeling pleasure, just like, fascination and all like they're so good at it. And then as we get into adulthood, we mute that, right? I think even my example of slamming on my brakes while I'm in session, right? Or it's a such a silly scene in a movie, but I always think about the scene from What About Bob when he's at dinner with them and he's just like, this food is so good. And they're like, can you stop? And it's just this silly scene, but I think it kind of speaks to. that we can't really express pleasure the way that we probably really want to. And so that's something too that I want to have happen with my couples. There is vulnerability in being really present and allowing someone to witness our pleasure because it's something that we're told to keep on the download that's private. That's personal. Don't do that. I love sometimes when I'm in a group setting with people, I'll say, okay, as a group, let's all go. Ooh. And we like as a room do that together or we'll go, ah, and just have this moment of expression of pleasure. Cause there's so, many. Rules around what we can and can't express and so that's a big thing for a sensei is that I love when clients can embrace moaning and just making noise and just like really feeling it

Joni: 44:26

Yeah, I think there's a lot of self judgment and concern about other people judging us as we get older. But you're right, when we see any kid, we're like, oh, that's so cute. You just don't care. But then if you were to see an adult doing okay, calm

Alex: 44:39

Yeah. Yeah. Oh you're being creepy or you're being weird Like it's no He's just really enjoying that ice cream or like getting your hair done when I when my hairdresser Washes my hair and like scrubs my head. I'm always like, Oh, that feels so good. But I don't really express that when I'm having her do my hair, but maybe next time when I go and I'll be like, Oh, that feels really nice. And just be present with it rather than feel shame around expressing it in a crowded salon

Joni: 45:06

I think that Did you watch friends?

Alex: 45:07

here and there.

Joni: 45:09

Okay, there's an episode of Friends. Monica gets a massage from her friend, Phoebe. Phoebe's a masseuse. And it's the first time she ever gets a massage from her. And she makes all these like moaning sex sounds. And then they make fun of it, because it is awkward for, Phoebe, her friend that's giving the massage. So there's that part of it, too, where it's I don't want to be the weird person. And so it's You do have to put the brakes on in some social settings to not make people uncomfortable. But then also you have to learn how to take off those brakes. So you can actually fully enjoy something.

Alex: 45:39

I think just like that curiosity of what feels good, why it feels good, why are you suppressing it? What is the societal? Cause yeah, I mean, do I want to hear people going around making sex moaning noises all the time? Like, No, but I want people to be more present with their pleasure and just find different ways to express it. And so I think that's also a big takeaway for me with Sense8 is that they can do that with each other. There are all kinds of like podcasts, Instagram polls, books out there that for most people their biggest turn on is watching their partner feel pleasure. That is a huge turn on for a lot of people. It's why I have clients that they're so nervous to receive oral sex. Like female clients are like, oh no, I don't want that. And half the time when I have the husband in the room, I'm like, do you just want to be down there? Do you care if it's shaved or, if she's been sweating for that he's yeah I just want to be down there giving her pleasure because I know she likes it and it's so vulnerable for my clients to sit back and receive because it is this oh I don't know. And of course, there's other aspects to receiving oral, but that's a big one of just that benefits It's primarily the female, right? That is very much a benefit of the female and to just be present and receive is vulnerable. And so I love working on that with clients. That's probably like higher up on an exposure list, right? That might be a 10 out of 10, but yeah, I just, I want people to just embrace pleasure more because we just don't daily,

Joni: 47:04

Yeah, Yeah, totally. That reminded me when you were saying that, how embracing pleasure over being goal oriented and like having orgasm be the goal. And if my partner does an orgasm, then we have not completed. Sex. We have not checked that box. And so one question that comes to mind is women who have difficulty orgasming, they go to sex therapy because they're like, I can't orgasm and I never have and I don't know how to. That feels like that's very goal oriented. So like, how do you even, what's the conversation

Alex: 47:34

yeah. It's starting with what's the goal here, like what, what's what do you get out of having an orgasm? What does it say about you if you're not having an orgasm? And that could go down a whole rabbit hole of education, right? I could go down a whole thing of, sex, penetrative heterosexual sex does not typically stimulate. some women can have vaginal orgasms, but that's a smaller percentage of women. Most women are going to orgasm through clitoral stimulation. Penetrative sex for the most part doesn't do that unless you're doing a certain position and you're having enough friction that is being stimulated. then that can happen. So it's one we have to look at like what's the narrative around sex? Like how are you approaching it? That's a big thing for women that come to me. It is there like, I can't, I'm not orgasming. I'm not orgasming. That could be, Oh my gosh. That's so many things, Shame is usually a big part of it. Again, I want to rule out physically, is there something going on. So I'll usually try and connect them to different providers in that sense, hormone testing. Yeah, pelvic floor therapy, just different things like that to see if there's something else there, but really just trying to have conversations of why is the goal orgasm orgasms feel good. Like I, I want people to experience those too. Those are great. We like them. But I think it's in Come As You Are where Emily talks about our monitor, right? We have a little monitor that tells us whether or not things are going well. And if our monitor is getting angry because we're not reaching that goal of orgasm, it's going to get even harder to then have an orgasm because then we're frustrated and we're like, Oh, it's not happening fast enough. Why is it not happening? Whereas instead it was like, what if we just. Notice what felt good. What if just the stimulation of our clitoris does feel good? It could be so many different things, right? And I've had some clients like overstimulation of the clitoris can be a problem, right? I mean your clitoris is packed full of nerve endings. It is. sensitive. And so sometimes, I have clients that are, aggressively applying pressure. I'm like, Ooh, what if you like ease back on that a little bit, that almost sounds like you're experiencing pain more than pleasure. And they're like, Oh, and not just themselves like partner is applying too much pressure or whatever. So talking about that sometimes of how do you ease back on that a little bit? And then yes, what was their education? What is their own relationship with pleasure? Why are we putting orgasm on a pedestal? It's kind of the cherry on top orgasms for women are different than orgasms for men, like female bodied versus male bodied individuals. It's a tough one. And I definitely have to challenge myself as a therapist of not. I don't want to get my client's hopes up too high, but I also want, I do want them to be able to experience an orgasm and I've had some come to me like, I don't know if I've had one before. I don't know. And I'm not even sure what it feels like. Which like, of course not because that's not part of our education. We're not really taught What that feels like, but ultimately, and I think this is an Emily's come as you are as well. Orgasm isn't based on what's happening in our body. Orgasm is more so based on what's happening in our mind. And so again, that mindfulness, of what are we noticing in our body that tells us more about pleasure than our body and kind of our interpretation of our experience. If that makes sense,

Joni: 50:41

Yeah. I feel like that's something that I hear often with my, I only see women a lot with my clients is that, concern. And I'm like, sounds like you need to see a sex therapist because I do not have the training for that. but I think it's helpful to remove that as a goal. do you even enjoy sex? Can you enjoy any part of it? And starting there, I think that's such a different frame. It's definitely not how sex is It's not what we see on TV, it's not how we talk about it, it's not what's seen in porn, which is like most people's exposure to sex, think it can be really helpful just to have that mindset shift of what if we remove that, that off the table and just see what you enjoy

Alex: 51:25

Right. Yeah, and some of those female clients That come to me with that issue of orgasm it's, and here in utah, it can be hard, right? But we do talk about what's your relationship with self stimulation? This idea of like self learning right. To learn more about your body. I have clients with their partners that they like, I don't know what feels good. Like this is too much or this is too little. I'm like, what if you kind of explored that on your own so that you could communicate that right. Of saying Oh, go faster circles are bigger, go up and down giving like more direct communication rather than just like laying there quietly and hoping that they figure it out. That can sometimes be why I encourage self stimulation and I know for a lot of people that is scary and it can go against some different beliefs and I definitely understand that. Sometimes if there is a complete resistance to that I almost get to the point sometimes of I don't know if I'm the right therapist for you then. Because I think for some people when they engage in self stimulation or masturbation or whatever the function is disconnect. Like they're wanting to disconnect from whatever it is, whether it's their partner their own emotions, they're uncomfortable. They're stressed, whatever. But for some people, the function of self stimulation could be, I want to know more about myself. I want to learn about my body. I want to know what touch feels good. And the beauty of doing that ourselves is that we have control over. pace, pressure item, the toy, like the heavy handedness, whatever, we have a little bit more control. And for some of my clients, that's really important that they feel in control of the sexual encounter versus feeling out of control. Cause sometimes when we're just relying on our partner for the pleasure, we're out of control, but what if we built our own relationship with pleasure? So That can be a hard conversation and a very vulnerable one for people. I 100 percent understand that. And I do encourage a lot of, particularly my female clients, bare minimum, go grab a mirror. Go look at your body part. Go have your own little moment from, from Big Mouth. I don't know if anyone's seen Big Mouth, but there's a scene where one of the characters pulls out a mirror and she's talking to her vulva. The vulva's voice by Kristen Wiig and it's just like such a good, it's just such a funny scene, but it's so true. I've literally had clients come to me and say, I did not look at my body parts until after I had kids. And I feel a lot of sadness and grief around that, that I didn't, Do that. And it's okay, let's hold space for that. Let's own it. And let's learn about your body now. Let's help you learn about what your body is like now and learn to embrace those changes. Cause that's, again, that's a whole nother rabbit hole could go down right with

Joni: 53:59

Totally.

Alex: 54:00

postpartum piece, but

Joni: 54:02

I think that's really important piece to talk about. I talked to a client recently about it and she's like, I don't think I'm allowed to do that. And I guess I just related it to like, well, have you ever had someone else brush your hair and you're like, Oh my gosh, that does not feel good. That hurts. They're pulling in the wrong spot. There's a tangle there. They're not doing it how I would do it. you know how to brush your hair. And so then you can tell someone how to brush your hair if you need to. I'm like, it's that but a lot more, there's a lot more shaming around it for, for this individual. But I'm like, if you don't know how to brush your hair, how are you supposed to tell someone else how to do it? And that's. That's pretty

Alex: 54:40

Yeah, that's. a great metaphor. I love that. I'm going to start using that.

Joni: 54:44

I think I heard someone say it and I was like, Oh my gosh, that's so helpful. If I don't remember who it was. Okay. Was there anything else? We've talked about so many things but is there anything else you wanted to make sure that you shared before we wrap up?

Alex: 54:55

So yeah, education, I've gone through this asex certification. I went to grad school. I can I'm going to do continuing education I still feel like I am learning so much as a sex therapist. I don't know everything I still probably would not be able to accurately label every Anatomy part of like female and male genitalia like truly if I had a pop quiz given to me I don't know if I could do it and I think just being able to educate And be I'm passionately curious about sexuality. If we can just embrace that in all different realms, like I think that would make such a difference for so many people. And there's so many ways to educate ourselves. There's so many podcasts and books and More and more people wanting to have conversations about this support groups, sex therapists, like Utah used to have two, there used to be only like two certified sex therapists in the state of Utah. And I think, I'm trying to remember how many they said at our last meet and greet that we did, but we've got so many more now, like there's so many people out there doing this that want to help and educate people. I would love to start, I'm slowly working on like putting together some of my own like group. Curriculum and education. I've started realizing, I think I would love to do what my roommate's therapist did of meeting with newly engaged couples and having education about, That it's okay to say no to sex, like obligatory sex, pleasure so many of these things that we're not educated on validation, right? Validation is one that I'm like, I do that with so many of my clients, like literally every single client we are talking about validation and practicing it and how to do it. Why is this not a skill that we are taught from As young as children, like we could teach the skill so early on and to be able to validate even when we're the cause of a hard and uncomfortable emotion for someone around us, like that is so powerful if we can do that.

Joni: 56:42

Where should people start? other than Come As You Are, which is a great place to start, but maybe they're not readers, or they're not gonna listen to a book. Is there a podcast? Is there Instagram page, TikTok, that

Alex: 56:53

Yeah. Come as you are, Emily does have a podcast. There's only eight episodes right now, but I think she's getting ready to release a new season. And that one's great. That's like a summary of the book. Cause I love the book Come As You Are, it took me a long time to get through it. It's a dense read. There's so much information. So that's a great podcast. I like, vanessa and Xander, Vanessa Marin on Instagram. She's on Instagram, but they also have a podcast? called Pillow Talks and I'll send different episodes to clients depending on what their needs are. So she's done some really good work and I like her stuff. Another book I like is Becoming Clitorate by Laurie Mintz. It's just like a fun thing. It's again, like helping women learn more about their own anatomy and, And obviously like the clitoris and stuff like that. And then I have, a lot of my clients who are parents a lot of my postpartum moms are like, I want to do things differently. I don't know what to do. They'll have like a two year old, like my two year old, like he's always playing with his penis and I don't, what do I do? I'm like, That's really normal. He's just found his body part and found that it feels good and try not to shame him for it. Like you can teach him in a way that's not shaming, right? And so a book that I really like for that one is from Tina Schemmer Sellers and I can send you this stuff, Joni, but it's called Shameless Parenting. And she goes through each Developmental phase for children and like what could be possible shame triggers for parents and how you can work through those books that you can have around your house for your kids at different ages that are more like educational, more inclusive. I think there's books in there about like different sexualities, like transgender non binary, because kids are learning this stuff. Whether you want them to or not, if your kids are going to a public school, your kids are learning about these things. And so By doing this and having these things in your home, be the safe people that your kids can come to because that's a huge protective factor for kids is if they feel that they can talk to their parents about these things. So the shameless parenting is really good because it, it helps parents work through their own shame triggers and figure out what's coming up for themselves so that they don't pass it on. To their kids. So that's a really good one too that I like.

Joni: 58:59

That's great. Yeah. if you want to send me anything that you typically recommend and I think like a specific episode of, or a few of Vanessa's podcast would be good. I've heard her talk on like a different podcast before, that's how I've been introduced to her. And I think sometimes it can be like a little overwhelming like, oh yeah, go listen to this whole Podcast.

Alex: 59:16

Yeah. There's definitely a few of hers that I really like that I send a lot. So I'll send those to you. Yeah.

Joni: 59:21

If someone, an individual or a couple wanted to come work with you, how do they get in contact with you?

Alex: 59:28

Yeah. So I'm on Psychology Today. If people want to search Alex Brown, I've double checked. I'm the only Alex Brown, which is shocking on Psychology Today. My website for my practice is sunflowertherapy. squarespace. com and I can send that to you as well. And then for postpartum moms, I'm. I'm also over at Serenity with Lindsay, who was on this podcast and Morgan as well. will always have a little special place in my heart for those. Pregnant and postpartum mamas. uh, Running help with the group program over there. Do the partner group over there as well. So either place

Joni: 59:59

Awesome. And do you I'm sure you do virtual, but where's your office located?

Alex: 1:00:03

I'm in Sandy. Yeah. So, Just down the road from corrie bend.

Joni: 1:00:07

Okay. Can you do couples therapy virtually?

Alex: 1:00:11

Totally.

Joni: 1:00:12

Okay.

Alex: 1:00:12

The system that I use, if I like, I have a couple next week that they're going to be in different places and they'll each have a link and so we can all three sign on from different places. Yeah. So I'd have a lot of couples that do virtual cause it's easier, especially with my clients that come to me from Serenity know we have the playroom at Serenity and we have extra resources there, but I don't really have space for, I mean, my office is big enough. I have clients that bring kids. I've got a toy chest here. I've got, like coloring things for kids, but my couples that are coming, Don't typically want their kids in session. So it's helpful for them to sometimes have the virtual option because they can have the kids like, Napping or something and we'll just meet virtually.

Joni: 1:00:52

Awesome. Cool. Thanks for your time and thanks for teaching me so much. I learned a ton. This was fantastic.

Alex: 1:00:58

Good. It was so fun being on here and it's been so good seeing you.

Joni: 1:01:01

Yeah. you too.

1:01:02

Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club. Welcome to the Sad Moms Club.